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At what level do you say you speak? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5683 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes  Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 25 of 63 30 June 2012 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Some native speakers are illiterates, how will they evaluate my writing skills?
I think we all know quite well that this is unlikely to ever happen for most of us.
Because you indicate that you may help other people to learn what you have learned. Because I would like to know how western people got to the B2 level in Mandarin, for instance, which is definitely an achievement. Because this is a forum for language learning. Because there is of course a huge difference between someone who knows nothing about a language and someone who can read something, even if this something means children books. This looks like a COF kind of message, but I decided to answer anyway. Edited by Flarioca on 30 June 2012 at 5:18pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Flarioca Heptaglot Senior Member Brazil Joined 5683 days ago 635 posts - 816 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, Esperanto, French, EnglishC2, Spanish, German, Italian Studies: Catalan, Mandarin | Message 26 of 63 30 June 2012 at 5:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Basic fluency as defined here in HTLAL is B2, I think this is easy to see, just compare what is said.
So, who decided that you "speak a language" at a B2 level was Mr. Administrator. I've already argued that ALTE levels would give a much better idea about people's language knowledge. Of course, as many studies have already shown, there is a huge spectrum of competence in a given level. Edited by Flarioca on 30 June 2012 at 5:26pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4466 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 27 of 63 30 June 2012 at 7:43pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I'm a native speaker of English and Italian. I live in the UK so I use English everyday and I hear it every day. My Italian sees far less use, although I have no problem with the TV or with conversations; I'd be slower writing it though. So my Italian isn't as good as my English. Should I not claim that I can speak it then?
His English is clearly better than my Swedish/German/Russian/whatever. It may be broken and it would be difficult to carry on a conversation of any length, but he can certainly communicate at a very basic level. This person speaks a little English, but he does speak.
You are claiming to be able to communicate to some degree. We're all arguing about the meaning of "some", I guess. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Elexi Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5366 days ago 938 posts - 1839 votes Speaks: English* Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 28 of 63 30 June 2012 at 8:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It depends how long I am in the country, e.g. when I land in a French speaking country:
about A1, four days later: not quite A2, a week and a half later I hit the B1 level I reckon I am at generally. This is where Skype conversation exchanges keep you going, but I never seem to get round to arranging them - :-{. Edited by Elexi on 30 June 2012 at 8:03pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6398 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 29 of 63 30 June 2012 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Maybe my standards are just unnecessarily high... But why is understanding 80% of what you read more important than understanding 80% of what you hear? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| zerrubabbel Senior Member United States Joined 4401 days ago 232 posts - 287 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Mandarin | Message 30 of 63 30 June 2012 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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well, I just re read the descriptions of each level, and I cast my vote at an A2 level, but I think Im starting to push into B1... at least in my speaking ability... reading is definitly lower
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| Jappy58 Bilingual Super Polyglot Senior Member United States Joined 4439 days ago 200 posts - 413 votes Speaks: Spanish*, Guarani*, Arabic (Levantine), Arabic (Egyptian), Arabic (Maghribi), Arabic (Written), French, English, Persian, Quechua, Portuguese Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 31 of 63 30 June 2012 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It's been interesting seeing this discussion unfold. As someone earlier stated, it seems like everybody has different ideas of what "some" means, and as this thread was regarding when one considers how well they can speak and understand a language, it obviously varies. Some believe "getting to the point" - even if it's executed incorrectly - is speaking; others think it has to be on par on a native's level; others go for A1 and A2. It seems to me like it's just another topic, as with "fluency". Is speaking just getting by or is it having a very strong command of speaking?
I personally chose B2 (as I earlier stated), because it is when I begin gaining real confidence in the language. When I got comfortable with Arabic, but was not quite on par with my native language, I'd state that I "speak Arabic, but definitely not fluently", which was more specific than just "I speak Arabic". I rarely ever state that I "speak X language." I only consider myself C2 in Guarani, Spanish, and Quechua, all native languages or (as with Quechua) that I learned at a very young age, whereas I feel that my English and Arabic is very close to a C2 level, but not quite: for Arabic, I can read and comprehend almost 95% of newspaper topics, unless it's about topics such as fashion or clothing, where it drops a little. I've read several books in their original Arabic, though it did take time for me to read it very comfortably to the point where I read almost as fast as I can in Spanish. I understand most of colloquial speech, unless it's a unique expression or phrase that is new to me (not surprising - it's an ongoing learning experience); even dialects that I barely studied such as Gulf, Hijazi, and Sudanese, I can understand thanks to my command of MSA, Egyptian, Moroccan, and Levantine. With Persian, I'd put my level at a middle C1. French, probably a high B2. I've been studying Portuguese for about four months, and I'd say I'm between A1 or A2, and it'll be some time before I can reach a B2, despite one of my native languages being Spanish.. English, as I already stated, I'm not so sure about, I always doubt myself when it comes to it, but I'd hope that it's at least a B2. I don't completely agree with that a native speaker should be allowed to assess a student's levels. A few of my Arab friends, when I was probably just at an A2 level, would say, "Wow, you're pretty much fluent in Arabic!" even though I made some notable mistakes. Some are just very friendly, others may just be amazed at any attempt at a non-native speaking their language. This goes with Persian as well, in my experience. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5333 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 63 30 June 2012 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
My opinions may be colored by the fact that I have ready access to French speakers, and the opportunity to use my French every day. Under those circumstances, it's essential to have at least 90% comprehension of what people say to you, and preferably much higher than that. Movies and TV are nice, but a whole lot less important to me. I mean, I like watching Buffy, but I need to understand fairly complicated one-on-one conversations. But conversation and reading are both relatively easy skills, because you can always ask for clarification or take a few seconds to puzzle out a sentence. It's not that they're more important than understanding movies, merely that they're much easier and plenty useful by themselves. Mix in the ability to speak reasonably quickly and grammatically, and I have no trouble calling these B1+/B2 skills "speaking." I've tried telling French speakers that I don't really speak French—typically out of momentary frustration in the middle of a long conversation—and they typically think that it's an absolutely farcical claim. I feel the same way about people learning English: Anyone who can have an interesting 2- hour conversation in English speaks English. The only real question is, how well? :-) Edited by emk on 30 June 2012 at 10:29pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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