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Has anyone heard of Valenciano? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6513 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes  Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 17 of 36 31 July 2006 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
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To Lucia: I have no intention of abolishing Spain or any of the languages/dialects of your country, and I definitely not trying to ignore what Franco did to your country. We are all happy to see a democratic and varied and wealthy Spain as part of Europe.
But I need to know what to name those languages/dialects and how to divide them into languages and dialects based on sound linguistic evidence, and as far as I can see there is no way this can be done without hurting somebodys feelings. I would like to remind you that I chose to study Catalan in the seventies, when it was still severely suppressed in Spain, and as soon as Franco died in 1975 I went down to Catalunya, among other things to speak to people and to read newspapers like Avui and Punt in the very first year of their existence. That may have given me a Catalan bias, but you cannot reasonably blame me for not being interested in the history of your country. Edited by Iversen on 31 July 2006 at 6:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ilcommunication Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6502 days ago 115 posts - 162 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian, Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 18 of 36 31 July 2006 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
I've never been to Spain but I can give you a small shred of the situation. The unified populist/leftist coalition party, The Popular Front, gained control of the Spanish government through the elections of 1936 (IIRC). Basically, the conservative elements of the country did not like this little occurance, and so the Spanish Army of Africa (which was Spain's main force) and other fascist groups turned against the government. The backers of the government, known as the Republicans, fought against this coup. The various Republican militias did all they could to stop the fascists, there was intensive fighting for years. However, the backing of Hitler and Mussolini (which included German aircraft gunning down innocents, see Guernica for example) helped Franco and his reactionary ilk defeat the defenders of the Republic. In the wake of the takeover of the government, Franco took control of Spain. Among the many (fascist) things he did, he put forth a rhetoric of "One Spain", which basically meant that he would try to stomp out and devour any non-Castilian culture and language. Catalan (and other languages) was outlawed, as in making it illegal to speak it or anything else. This policy died with Franco, so those languages are in a state of recovery and resurgence (at least Catalan is, IIRC). I think that is somewhat accurate, but it's just my take on what happened. By the way, no pasaran (y Viva Er Beti). 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Magnum Bilingual Triglot Retired Moderator Pro Member United States Joined 6927 days ago 359 posts - 353 votes Speaks: English*, Serbian*, French Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 19 of 36 31 July 2006 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | |||||
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ilcommunication, that was a very interesting post. Are there any race differences between the Castilian and Catalan people? How did the differences in language arise? Was one part of spain inhabited by a different group of people?
I wonder why there is a divide in the language and culture? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| ilcommunication Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6502 days ago 115 posts - 162 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian, Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 20 of 36 01 August 2006 at 12:00am | IP Logged | |||||
Well when you look at a group like the Basques, they've been in that area since time immemorial while the rest of the Iberian peninsula and Europe developed differently. The Basque language isn't even Indo-European, it's completely unique. To be honest, I don't know exactly why Catalan is such a distinct language. However, Catalan (and the language of Valencia) I would think that its proximity to France was a factor. In general, the different groups of Spain are just a case of development and separate roots. With culture, Spain is pretty diverse. Where do I start? Andalucia is famous for its dance, bullfighting, faint yet vivid Moorish influence and more. Galicia has a very Celtic feel, recalling the region's distant past. The Basque Country, or the Euskadi, is considered the oldest culture of Europe, and that very culture is like no other. Here's part of an article about Catalunya: "Catalunya is not Spain, but a separate country. So say the Catalans and with good reason. It has its own language, its own customs, a thriving historic capital and a hard-working mentality far removed from the maņana maņana procrastinations often associated with Spain." With Catalunya, I really don't know if it's an "ethnic" division as much as a cultural and linguistic one, although I could be wrong. The Basques are a distinct ethnic group (I'm pretty sure), however. I probably barely grasp the topic, but those are a few things I do know. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| patuco Diglot Moderator Gibraltar Joined 6825 days ago 3795 posts - 4268 votes Speaks: Spanish, English* Personal Language Map | Message 21 of 36 01 August 2006 at 3:30am | IP Logged | |||||
Do you have a link for this article? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6513 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 22 of 36 01 August 2006 at 4:18am | IP Logged | |||||
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The present distribution of languages (and dialects) in Spain is mainly a result of developments during the Reconquista, that is the long process under which the Moors were expelled from the Iberian peninsula. In very broad terms the different languages and dialects correspond to small kingdoms across Northern Spain around 1000.
From Galicia one liberation movement continued due south to form present day Portugal (but for some reason Galicia later became part of Spanien, even though the local dialect is closer to Portuguese). From Catalunya the movement went partly due South, partly East to the Balearic Islands. If you look at a map you can see that the Eastern coast line of Spain is not North-South, but slanted towards West. However the language border for Catalan(-Valencian) runs for some reason almost due South, so at some point the Catalans so to say ran out of space. In the middle Castile had no natural barriers, so the Castilians just pushed South as far as they could, and they got by far the largest slice of the area. In between these three kingdoms there were others, such as Leon and Asturias and Aragon, but they got squeezed out of competition at a relatively early date. Aragon in fact was unified with Catalunya, and when all of Spain was unified under Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon, Catalunya was part of a kingdom called Aragon. But in linguistic terms Catalunya won, and Aragonese today is a shadow of its former glory. Leonese also went more or less into oblivion, while the area around Valencia had a culturally rich period though with a language it basically shared with the Catalans further North. When Spain was unified and the Moors were finally expelled from the country just before 1500, the Castilians dominated the center, and in spite of regional differences it was their language that became commonly īknown as "Spanish". By the way Castilian was to some degree influenced by the Arab language, while Catalan had stronger ties with the South-East of present day France, which was then speaking a language called Langue d'oc (literally "the language where 'Yes' is 'oc'). This area was devastated by France ('Langue d'oil') during a series of mainly religious wars, and this combined with centralistic language politics in France ever since has led pure Occitan to the brink of extinction. What you hear nowadays in the area is generally either pure (Northern) French or French influenced by Occitan. So there Catalan lost its most likely ally. One last detail: the Basques speak several dialects which are according to the experts quite far from each other, maybe enough to warrant the designation as separate languages. And then they are said to be so totally isolated from any other language that they form their own group, far outside the Indoeuropean language group. The only claim to the contrary comes from people who see a distant relationship to the Caucasian languages, such as Kartuli (Georgian). I have no idea whether that is well founded or not. Edited by Iversen on 01 August 2006 at 12:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Magnum Bilingual Triglot Retired Moderator Pro Member United States Joined 6927 days ago 359 posts - 353 votes Speaks: English*, Serbian*, French Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 23 of 36 01 August 2006 at 11:04am | IP Logged | |||||
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With all the variations, dialects and local pride, if someone only knew Spanish would there be any parts of Spain where a different language was spoken? Or are all these second languages, and everyone knows Spanish as the primary language? Is it possible to find yourself in a town or region where a language different than Spanish is the most popular? Edited by Magnum on 01 August 2006 at 11:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6513 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 24 of 36 01 August 2006 at 12:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Ordinary "Spanish" can probably be used everywhere in Spain. We have had another thread, where Vilas wondered why he didn't hear any Catalan in the streets of Barcelona, even though streetsigns and everything else was in Catalan. He suspected that the language wasn't spoken at all, but the explanation is rather that every Catalan is bilingual and speaks 'ordinary' Spanish to foreigners, unless he or she has a reason to do otherwise. And it is the same in the other areas with their own languages. But Catalan (/ Valencian) or Galician or Euskadi may still be the primary language for such a bilingual person.
By the way, that is one of the topics where people who actually live in Spain would be better equipped than me to answer. But now I have told you my impression. Edited by Iversen on 01 August 2006 at 12:40pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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