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Has anyone heard of Valenciano? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Lucia Diglot Senior Member Spain Joined 6640 days ago 146 posts - 147 votes  Speaks: English, Spanish* Studies: German | Message 25 of 36 01 August 2006 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | ||
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Magnum,
I´ve been in nearly all of Spain and everybody I´ve met understood and spoke Spanish. I´m told by my Catalan friends that "pagesos" (Catalan peasants ) over 60 have a hard time understanding Spanish.This might happen to peasants in the Basque Country and Galicia too. Spaniards come in all shapes and sizes ,and now even in different colours,so you can´t tell,by their looks,where they or their family are from. Ilcommunication´s summary of the Spanish Civil War is correct in my opinion but we still don´t know the whole story.As Patuco says this isn´t a history forum so we´ll have to leave it at that,unless you want to start a "How-to-understand-any-historic-event.com " website. I have nothing to win or lose in this Catalan versus Valencian discussion . I´m just helping the underdog. And for all those Betis Soccer Team fans out there,the complete sentence is "Viva el Betis manque pierda " (even when it loses ). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6763 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 26 of 36 01 August 2006 at 2:16pm | IP Logged | ||
This is not a history forum, but we can still discuss the historic and political factors and trends relevant to the subject of language, in this case language use. I find it more intesting to ask not whether in Catalunya people speak Spanish nowadays, but what the trends for the future are. I recall reading in a Spanish newspaper that there was a fight about reducing the minimum required number of hours for studying Spanish in schools between Catalan authorities and Spain's central government. As far as I can tell, the goal of Catalan nationalist movement is at the very least to make Catalan the language of choice in all of their government institutions, courts, schools, etc. I find it less clear if they would like to secede from Spain entirely or keep their status, like Quebec in Canada, in limbo, thus forcing the central government to provide more and more autonomy as time goes, with at least some trappings of an independent nation-state. As an example, Catalunya wanted to have its own sports teams compete as Catalan teams side by side with the Spanish national teams in world sports events. I believe the Civil Guard handed over some aspects of law enforcement in Catalunya to a local equivalent, etc. I don't know that this is entirely language-related or whether the language is also a convenient and powerful "excuse" (in the present-day context). I wonder at times if there are some parallels with Italy, where the well-known North-South divide seems more economic and cultural than linguistic. Some in the rich North wouldn't mind leaving their poor Southern brethren to their own devices so as to enjoy a higher standard of living themselves. Likewise, Catalunya is the most economically developed province in Spain, which makes one wonder. The trend towards regionalism and nationalism seems to be the general trend in the Western world, if not the whole world, today. Franco can't be held responsible for Scotland wanting its own parliament, but they did want it anyway. Are these trends harmless? As Lucia says, as long as everyone is free, who is to care. One possible problem I I see, as an outsider, is that the EU is still a rather amorphous entity, so parts of nation-states splitting off may lead to the weakening of nation-states comprising the EU without the corresponding strengthening of the EU as a whole taking place concurrently, but this is admittedly a rather cerebral argument. Language-wise, though, the number of languages is likely to proliferate side-by-side with the lingua franca becoming more and more widely known. So, a Catalunya where Catalan will be spoken, English (or whatever the future lingua franca may be) widely known, and Spanish in the process of being 'forgotten', is not entirely inconceivable in the not-so-near future. Edited by frenkeld on 01 August 2006 at 9:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Magnum Bilingual Triglot Retired Moderator Pro Member United States Joined 6937 days ago 359 posts - 353 votes Speaks: English*, Serbian*, French Studies: German Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 36 01 August 2006 at 2:26pm | IP Logged | ||
That is a very interesting point. I never knew there was such a divide in Spain, not only in culture but in language. If there is a growing divide in Spain, will Catalan be the more popular choice of the wealthy? Is there an advantage to knowing Catalan when it comes to making business contacts and friends? Will a stranger who speaks Catalan be more welcomed than a stranger who speaks Spanish? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6763 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 28 of 36 01 August 2006 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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It's difficult for an outsider like me to judge how much of a divide there really is at the level of common people, "on the ground", so to speak. All my impressions are based on what I've gleaned from newspapers, which mostly cover the legislative and administrative issues.
Of course, don't forget that, unlike Catalan, Basque nationalist movement also has a violent component, and while ETA seems to be the product of Franco's era, Basque nationalism as such predates it - my recollection is that its intellectual roots go back to the end of the 19th century. Basically, Spain has not succeeded in unifying the country the way France or Germany did in the past. Edited by frenkeld on 01 August 2006 at 2:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| ilcommunication Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6512 days ago 115 posts - 162 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Russian, Portuguese, Mandarin | Message 29 of 36 01 August 2006 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | ||
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I'm pretty sure Eta declared it wouldn't be doing anything violent anymore (and it hasn't). IMO, this is because the present government in Madrid actually gives the Basques some respect.
France and Germany is a whole different thing IMO. Spain has many different groups which want to keep their distinct identities. You still see that in France and Germany to some extent (the Bavarian dialect, for example), but in Spain it is far more deeply rooted and established. That's just the way I see it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6763 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 30 of 36 01 August 2006 at 3:50pm | IP Logged | ||
I don't know enough Spanish history to judge whether the reasons for Spain being different are intrinsic or due to cumulative policies of the Spanish rulers and governments over the past 500 years, so instead of using the words "Spain has not succeeded", I should have said "It never came about in Spain" or something to that effect. Edited by frenkeld on 01 August 2006 at 4:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Andy E Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 6923 days ago 1651 posts - 1939 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, French | Message 31 of 36 17 August 2006 at 10:52am | IP Logged | ||
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Having just spent a couple of weeks in the southern part of the Valencian community staying in Jávea and travelling between there and Alicante, in the entire time I only heard Valenciano spoken once - I'm assuming it was Valenciano because it wasn't Castellano.
It was a family speaking to one another in a restaurant and I suddenly realised I couldn't understand a word they were saying. They were friends with the owner who greeted them on arrival - he spoke to them in Spanish and they also replied in Spanish. I'm quite interested to how how prevalent this "dialect" of Catalan is as well. Andy. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6523 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 32 of 36 17 August 2006 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | ||
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I have decided to do something practical about it, so I'm travelling down there next month. I heard a lot of Catalan in Barcelona last year, so if Valencians speak Catalan too I'm sure that I will hear some. And if I don't understand a word I will of course apologize to them that I didn't believe in the existence of a separate Valencian language.
But judging by the dire warnings of Lucia earlier in the thread I may have to wear armour and a helmet... Edited by Iversen on 17 August 2006 at 2:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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