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We, who manage to focus on ONE language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6406 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 121 of 142 24 August 2013 at 8:40pm | IP Logged | |||||
Oh, I've not been here for like a week and look what I've missed.
And what if my goal is "understanding the majority of things i come across in the majority of the languages belonging to a given group"? In the long run this includes the Slavic, Romance and Germanic languages. Synergy is involved here. a 30/70 divide between, say, Italian and Portuguese will help both languages, whereas 100% Portuguese will give very little to my Italian. You've not experienced this, but it's an important factor and it shouldn't be ignored. But the most amazing thing is that if you don't neglect listening, your passive skills will become active. Yes, they will. I'm still constantly amazed at how much I can say in Italian without pretty much any formal study. I'm curious about one thing though. Do you LOVE French? A lot? I think my main difference from most other people is just that I love about ten languages the way most learners love just one or two. But even I've been able to do that 8 hours a day thing only with the language I love most, Finnish. And to anyone who really loves a language I certainly recommend focusing on it and doing as much as you can, because if you start something else, you'll feel guilty about not devoting enough time to this one. I think it's what happened in your case too. You learned English and Swedish because they are useful for you, and now you're learning French because you love it. But would you have been less good at any of the three languages if you had started French sooner? I don't think so. Finally, French is a big language with an overwhelming amount of resources. Not everyone has this luxury. And a real life example. I have quite many friends who love various European countries the way I love Finland. They speak Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian and so on. They speak these languages much better than I speak them, sure. But not better than I speak my best language, Finnish. Whereas these friends tend to want to learn "one more language" and also complain that they are forgetting English. (they are awesome people but I think it's a problem that they love only one language) 10 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3930 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 122 of 142 24 August 2013 at 9:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
Try starting to study Spanish, French, and Italian or Portuguese at the same time. I do not think that a lot of successful language learners would recommend that, but I can be wrong. I would imagine that what you refer to synergy would work in reverse in that case, to confuse you because they are all very similar but yet different. I imagine it would be wiser to study Italian after you have gotten a firm understanding of Spanish first, not to start them out simultaneously, this is when the synergy would work optimally I think. Besides another reason for learning a couple of languages after each other is because of the cumulative effect of being immersed with a particular language. You get that needed repetition. This is why I do not think that going from one language to two translates to a half as efficient approach (for each of the two languages if compared to solely learning it). I think the efficiency goes down even more because you do not get that cumulative effect from repetition. I believe this is the reason why the originator of LR for example advocates immersing oneself for long stretches of time. I do not think this is necessary but I see a great benefit. I truly love French, I think it sounds very powerful and intellectual. I think it flows elegantly. But of course I also like the possibilities that knowing the language would open up to me. Interesting that you love Finnish! I truly feel your pain if you are studying a small and less popular language, I can imagine that it can be a struggle to find material. But since I know the benefits of such material I would encourage everyone to try their best to find such material. Internet is big. These are my thoughts, I appreciate you sharing yours! Edited by JC_Identity on 24 August 2013 at 9:50pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6406 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 123 of 142 24 August 2013 at 10:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I started them within a half a year of one another (except French - I don't like it :P). Confusion only happens if you attempt to speak from day one, if at all.
Synergy is basically the same thing as repetition. Especially when you're focusing on the passive skills, you can use a related language instead of the same one. Basically, my approach is All Foreign Languages, All The Time. And I mostly do comprehensible input/LR/reading. For me it's a lifestyle choice. It's not about what I use, it's about what I don't use - my native language. I think you'll look at it differently when you are "done" with French and it will be time to start a new language (if you even plan this). You'll see how much love the dedication we're talking about really requires. You'll see how it's possible to like a language a lot but just not enough to spend 8h a day on it, even on fun stuff. (a new language can also be tiring to listen to, btw) 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5365 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 124 of 142 24 August 2013 at 10:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'm with Serpent and others on this one: the synergistic effect of studying several languages at once can be really quite surprising, and this only seems to get better with time. Vocabulary, grammar, conceptual and cultural understandings, and so on...all the underlying memories just seem to stick faster and for longer when I study multiple languages at once. I think Professor Arguelles explains it far better than I can here in a post about "time management" from 2007:
"In the comparative mindset, because you study languages simultaneously, you use them as supports for each other, to illuminate and explain each other, to serve as points of contrast and distinction for each other. Studying one language because it is a tool that you want to use, or because it is a key that you would like to have, is utterly different from studying several languages because you want to understand what they are. Imagine the framework of a massive dartboard that consists initially of nothing but a number of concentric wire circles. In order to learn a language, you must throw darts at the board and get them to stick. Initially they can only stick to the wires, so most of them will go straight through the empty space. However, once you do hit a wire, the dart will hang down from it, filling the space, and subsequent darts that you throw can stick to it as well, eventually filling in more and more of the space. If you only have one target, or if you use a different target for several different languages, you will always have a hard task. However, if you are able to use the same target all the time, you will find it ever easier to hit." Noticing how elements of one language are similar or different from other languages each day definitely helps me in the overall encoding and classification process, which in turn boosts both my ability to guess new phrases, and recall recently learnt words. They all end up supporting and strengthening each other, and maybe it's just my strange brain, but I have yet to experience any considerable language interference as of yet (maybe time will tell on that one). Of course it's all down to what you want out of languages and language learning. Personally, I'd like to be a polyglot one day (I've long since crossed off Wimbledon champion and NASA astronaut!). This is partly because I like opening my mind to new ways of experiencing and acting in the world around me, and being able to think in several different languages helps me do this. However it's also partly because I'm very passionate about so many different languages, and for so many different reasons, that I just can't pick one. I've tried to focus on just one or two in the past, but I find that my motivation quickly wanes, and I end up eloping with another new language or an old flame that comes along after the initial honeymoon period. Having a polylingual "harem", for lack of a better word, keeps me much too busy for my eyes to wander too far away (lol). And here's one more little thought on this: if I periodically grow tired of one language, or some more challenging or routine aspect of it, another language quickly comes along and helps bolster my dying enthusiasm that very same day. In this way, it's like a refreshing full body workout, or going back to school and learning a dozen subjects all in the same week (except I get to choose the subjects this time round!). Exercising certain muscles in short sequence or concert, or meditating on what I'd initially consider quite disparate concepts, often leads to a situation where they end up working together and stabilising future skills. Edited by Teango on 24 August 2013 at 10:32pm 7 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Bao Diglot Senior Member Germany tinyurl.com/pe4kqe5 Joined 5575 days ago 2256 posts - 4046 votes Speaks: German*, English Studies: French, Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin | Message 125 of 142 24 August 2013 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | |||||
It seemed to fit with the general mood of overgeneralization, and with remarks that made it sound like when other forum members don't agree with your statements being true for them, you take it personally. As if when you say 'I am tall, so reaching the upper shelves is easy', somebody else stating 'Well, but I am not tall so I can't reach those shelves' actually means 'What you just said is wrong, you can't be serious about being able to reach those shelves just because you are tall', and you have to fend off that accusation by replying 'Of course I am tall, what you said about not being able to reach those upper shelves must be your own imagination!' I'm not sure if you are bored, or actually not aware of having made those remarks. But I am sad that you rose to that bait, yet did not reply to my long reply in which I explained why spending a lot of time with one of my intermediate languages - indeed the one I love most and have the most intrinsic motivation for - is so exhausting that I find myself unable to do even more for and in the language.
And who told you I didn't? 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tsopivo Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4280 days ago 258 posts - 411 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Esperanto | Message 126 of 142 25 August 2013 at 1:57am | IP Logged | |||||
I have no doubt that this is how you view yourself and that you sincerely believe that. However, this is really not the impression that some of your posts on this thread gave me especially your first post (including the title) and this one. I admit that in other posts, you have on the contrary seemed careful about your way of phrasing your opinion - though never acknowledging that other approaches might be equal (or God forbid preferable) to yours for others, due to their personal circumstances, learning style, objectives, preferences... Do you truly and sincerely expect me to view you as respectful of different opinions and choices and not trying to convert people to your superior approach when you follow this with :
after having stated (and certainly not proven to my satisfaction) that not focusing on a single language to the exclusion of any other is slower. Edited by Tsopivo on 25 August 2013 at 1:58am 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Tsopivo Diglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4280 days ago 258 posts - 411 votes Speaks: French*, English Studies: Esperanto | Message 127 of 142 25 August 2013 at 2:11am | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks for the compliment, my oral skills are not on par but they are good enough for my needs so I can't find enough motivation to actively and consistently work on improving them at the moment. I understand that the 80% is relative and not absolute but I still think you can not use it as you did in your example or that knowing 80% of the words that an educated native knows is useless or gives you poor reading skills. I can't really provide you with any proof either way though. That being said, I am not particularly convinced by the way people use the Pareto principle relatively to language learning in their arguments. The rule was originally just an observation of wealth distribution. Even if we were to admit that it applies to language learning, it still only means that 80% of our acquired knowledge comes from 20% of our efforts. I believe this was meant as an urge to focus on efficient language learning strategies and activities but in no way can we assume from this statement that it is the first 20% of our efforts that produces 80% of the results or that 80% is enough. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| JC_Identity Triglot Groupie Sweden thelawofidentity.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 3930 days ago 53 posts - 108 votes Speaks: Swedish, Serbo-Croatian*, English | Message 128 of 142 25 August 2013 at 3:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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It seems like people are getting hurt here, that was not my intention with starting this thread. I want to
apologize to those people. I will take all the blame here. I have decided not to continue writing here on this thread. I think it is best that way. It seems like I have a too radically different view on language learning than most people here. The reason for the name of the topic, if someone was offended by it, was to spur the discussion. It obviously worked. Without getting too philosophical it is perhaps also worth explaining that the reason I hold strong convictions is because I think that two opposing ideas cannot both be right (at the same time and in the same respect). I hold that there are no contradictions in reality. There are principles to nature that are one way and not the other (not saying here that mine are the right ones), I want to figure them out. I think I have figured out some of them. This is why I never said that two ideas in that respect are equally right. I think I managed to get at least some eager discussion going here, and that tells me that most people here implicitly if not explicitly at some level also hold that ideas are worth discussion in order to find out what is right. I like that. I will take the advice from someone who wrote here earlier, to start a log. I will try using it for documenting my ideas for my own sake and for people that care and are interested in what I have to say. Although I fully accept all the blame here I have to say that I think I understand a bit why the originator of LR left this forum. That was really unfortunate, it is hard being different. I am truly sorry for all the harm I have caused, bye and thanks for me! 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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