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Team Exploradores - TAC 2014 TEAM Thread | ||
Tags: Papiamento | Galician | Team Thread | Catalan | Portuguese | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6392 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 121 of 204 02 February 2014 at 5:50am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Wow, Crush, your post was very informative! les chiques looks a lot like French, while the x reminds me on Esperanto. I've always seen @ as including a, o and neither, but I can see how it probably doesn't feel inclusive when you're aware that many don't take "other" seriously.
mrwarper, that was quite passive-aggressive. please refrain from judgemental statements and assumptions here. sometimes I wonder if PC wouldn't be perceived like that if it didn't have the word political in it. But try mentally replacing it with a less loaded term, like empathy or inclusiveness. edit: grammar Edited by Serpent on 02 February 2014 at 8:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5660 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 122 of 204 02 February 2014 at 8:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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There's an article (in Spanish) about the usage of "e" that goes much further into the question, if anyone is interested:
Nota al uso del lenguaje 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 123 of 204 02 February 2014 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
I can't refrain from making judgements -- it's part of being human. I'll try to be more plainly aggressive in the future if that's less offensive :)
It has nothing to do with politics if you ask me, but now that you mention it, perhaps word load could be avoided altogether by not using any adjective -- thus "Correctness". I can't see how the term could be any more PC in itself. Alpha and Omega, be all and end all. Some folks will complain it sounds even preachier to them, but I think it's all the more fitting too. OK, seriously... Just like I see no point in intentionally hurting people's feelings, I see any further attempts at bending language as a huge and pointless waste of energy -- in a best case scenario. I believe the most valuable thing after life itself is freedom (including that of speech), so I'll leave to PC sticklers saying that people cannot say as they please. However, there's a little fact that PC advocates may find somewhat uncomfortable: communication is a two-sided thing, and those on the other side may not feel composed to listen.
It's just a little better than the average article dealing with the subject, but thank you. I've said a few times here I consider grammatical gender mostly an annoyance, except as a reflection of biology, but reforming languages is definitely not my cup of tea. I'm also less inclined to listen when something like that comes from people who can't use language properly and coherently in the first place -- kind of like if it only helps to show that one knows why artistic conventions are there if one wants to be taken seriously when breaking them. Not a definite measure, but it helps to tell more or less intelligent proposals from mere tantrums of those who can only abide by rules they make up themselves. Edited by mrwarper on 02 February 2014 at 1:20pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6392 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 124 of 204 02 February 2014 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Except that these changes weren't invented by Crush... who also appears to handle the Spanish gender system pretty well.
And frankly, even on HTLAL language skills should not be a requirement for avoiding/reducing discrimination. Edited by Serpent on 02 February 2014 at 6:54pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5021 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 125 of 204 02 February 2014 at 8:05pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Which is why I didn't even mention the Xs thing as a 'correction', and in a separate paragraph. If somebody adopts any particular style when writing or speaking I'm OK as long as that's their free choice*, and not something they happened to pick up from some illiterate airhead, like using the wrong register with somebody one just met. The only way to decide it's a free choice is getting more information, i.e. discussing a wider perspective of how other speakers (not even necessarily most) react to it and / or get some feedback. If I offend the addressee** with a comment when doing so, I can assure that it's unintentional and I'm open to any civilized discussion, just the way Crush took it -- thanks for being a good sport btw :)
Regarding that and the first asterisk above, I have to say that Crush' candid comment, supporting arguments, and display of some respect for language features have earned him a much higher esteem and respect in my book than any of those Neospeak inventors will ever get. No need to hide what you feel behind purportedly loftier thoughts to be held as an excuse -- the only effect that can have on an intelligent audience, if any, is detractive. Not to mention he sees possible problems with all the alternatives he mentioned, while one will hardly ever find any self-criticism among the enlighteners, er... I mean authors of such 'alternate systems'. There's a tiny amount in that article, hence my saying it's a bit better than average. In general, though, it feels like they're trying to change a whole working system just to accommodate their views**, and they give two hoots about how inconvenient that may be for everybody else. Not my cup of tea either, if you'll excuse me. **Another typical and annoying feature of PC oversensitiveness is taking issue at everything in behalf of somebody else. I'd rather let people have their say before self-appointing me their paladin and go righting wrongs that may not be so. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5660 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 126 of 204 02 February 2014 at 9:10pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Honestly i don't really care how other people express themselves, though i must admit that it does feel a bit odd to hear someone refer to me with a gender. Generally i just pass it over as in many languages to avoid it you have to resort to unnatural-sounding speech. People i'm close to tend to make the effort, but i'm not out here to change the way anyone else thinks/speaks.
In my own speech, i avoid gender unless someone specifically mentions they identify a certain way or prefer to be addressed a certain way. I just don't think it's important for someone to know the sex or gender of the person i'm talking about, i don't think it should affect your perception of what they've done. But either way, i'd rather people make their own decisions on how to act and speak. I don't know if people always think about what they do, i wish they did, but that's a whole different issue. On using the "e" system here at HTLAL, i feel like that would just confuse people who are trying to learn Spanish, but it is a nice way to avoid making people uncomfortable when talking with people with a similar background. Otherwise, i think the "x" system is much more widespread, much less confusing, and less likely to be construed as a mistake made by a non-native speaker. So that's what i use. @mrwarper: Of course you don't need me to say this, but you're always welcome to say whatever you want. Personally, i appreciated the chance to talk about something that i feel doesn't get talked about that much. My personal opinion is that i'd rather people say and do things i disagree with than for those things to become outlawed (and for them to continue doing those things even if they're made illegal). I'll stick up for what i believe, but i don't see the use in attacking beliefs (and i didn't really see that here). I think we just viewed the use of "x" differently. One to include both genders, the other to avoid it entirely. @Serpent: I also really appreciate your support :) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6392 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 127 of 204 03 February 2014 at 1:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I have to admit that it's sad to me if you feel that only the ones close to you should make an effort. You deserve respect, and so do the people who are making an effort to change the(ir) language. I've been wanting all day to say that you're an asset to this team with your knowledge/learning/interest in and of the Iberian languages. But the main thing here is that most people feel welcome here by default, and challenging the binary/cisgender language shouldn't change that. Especially when it's about not only views but the identity itself.
It's not your responsibility to educate others or to be "a good sport", an ambassador of your community. If anyone judges groups of people based on that, it says much more about them, and it's not something you should feel guilty about. (Easier said than done... I still dread hearing "women are stupid" or "IT-folks are bad at languages" when I make a mistake in something I write online.) @mrwarper, your comments were very borderline and you know that. As for taking offense, I did it on the behalf of the thread itself, if you will. I'm not the leader but I'm pretty much the founder of the team. Also, taking it personally is just as borderline as meaning it personally. If discriminatory language affects a friend, family member or, say, a celebrity you adore, it will feel quite personal, even if they weren't the target of the attack. And singling someone out as unusually good compared to other members of the community can be little better than insulting them directly. I'm all for continuing the discussion about gender neutrality but let's please focus on the language itself. If you feel the need to respond to anything else in this message, please use PM. Finally, let me just remind you that you are both authorities in your own ways here. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Crush Tetraglot Senior Member ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5660 days ago 1622 posts - 2299 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish, Mandarin, Esperanto Studies: Basque | Message 128 of 204 03 February 2014 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Btw, is anyone actually studying Galician this year? I got a nice collection of materials to study it while in Spain and i'd be more than happy to share them. I think Galician is so beautiful and i've been studying it off and on for a while (maybe i can make that next year's TAC).
To start (i found this out after buying 3 out of the 4 books, the first book i couldn't find), since the Aula de galego course is no longer being published, they were kind enough to put the entire series (1-4) online for free, including PDF of the book and audio (in wma, unfortunately, but that can be easily converted): http://www.xunta.es/linguagalega/aula_de_galego_1 http://www.xunta.es/linguagalega/aula_de_galego_2_0 http://www.xunta.es/linguagalega/aula_galego_3_0 http://www.xunta.es/linguagalega/aula_galego_4 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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