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Is.t n(y).t r n(y) km.t (Team Egyptian)

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renaissancemedi
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 Message 33 of 43
13 February 2014 at 9:28pm | IP Logged 
You probably know about this one, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Hiéroglyphes mode d’emploi

I've had this since 2005, when I visited the Louvre on my honeymoon. It's very basic, and I suppose you have more detailed sources, but it is compact and in french!


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Zireael
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 Message 34 of 43
17 February 2014 at 1:57pm | IP Logged 
Been to a short lecture on Ancient Egyptian and I'm seriously stumped:

Why is it listed as a separate language and not a part of the Semitic family?

The sound inventory is amazingly close, it even has the ayin (glottal stop) and the dal and others (the varied h sounds)... the only difference is that it has /p/ as opposed to Arabic/Hebrew. Also, it is practically an incomplete abjad, what with marking semi-vowels and using the semivowel glyphs for some vowels, too.
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emk
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 Message 35 of 43
17 February 2014 at 4:46pm | IP Logged 
Zireael wrote:
Been to a short lecture on Ancient Egyptian and I'm seriously stumped:

Why is it listed as a separate language and not a part of the Semitic family?

Egyptian is part of the larger Afro-Asiatic family, along with Arabic, Hebrew, Berber, and a bunch of other north and central African languages. It's a big, loose family, and it's not clear that all the languages actually share a single common ancestor. As I understand it, it's possible that some of the shared features originate in a prehistoric Sprachbund, or that some of the languages are weird hybrids, the way that English is a Germanic language with a massive Romance overlay.

But yes, Egyptian has triliteral roots, clitic pronouns, two genders (with the feminine ending in -t) and plenty of cognates with Arabic. For a nice overview, I recommend the Loprieno book I linked in the first post.

Zireael wrote:
The sound inventory is amazingly close, it even has the ayin (glottal stop) and the dal and others (the varied h sounds)... the only difference is that it has /p/ as opposed to Arabic/Hebrew. Also, it is practically an incomplete abjad, what with marking semi-vowels and using the semivowel glyphs for some vowels, too.

Yeah, the Egyptian writing system is basically an abjad, but with a number of cool tricks. For example, we can spell out the word bin using the signs for b, i and n, and then add a little bird meaning “bad, weak, evil”:


bin
bad

But we also have signs that stand for more than one letter. For example, the first sign in the example below can be read sS:

 
sS | sS
write | scribe

You see another cool trick here: if we follow sS with roll of papyrus (the generic determinative for abstract ideas), that means “write.” If we follow it with a seated man (the generic determinative for a man), that means “scribe.” The determinatives presumably would have allowed a native reader to figure out which vowels to use with the word root.

We can also use a short, vertical line to force an ideographic interpretation instead of a phonetic one:

 
r | rA
for | mouth, language, word

Overall, it's a really nice writing system. You can get through ~200 signs worth of Anki cards quickly enough, after which the determinatives actually make it easier than modern Semitic scripts, in some ways. Even the biliteral and triliteral signs make it easier to read, because different homonyms will often be written with different signs.
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emk
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 Message 36 of 43
18 February 2014 at 10:14pm | IP Logged 
Egyptian subclauses seem to be entertainingly weird. Here's another bit from Peter Rabbit:

Page 16

I’ve rewrapped several lines below so that words don’t get split in half.

       
ist | r=f | wn | flopsy | mopsy
CONV.PCLE | so | be.PCLE | Flopy | Mopsy
So there were Flopsy, Mopsy

This part is hard to translate well without rewriting it completely, because the grammar here is very different than anything in English. So I’ve decided to keep most of the structure of the Egyptian at the expense of making the English weird. The original English text reads:

Quote:
Flopsy, Mopsy and Cotton-tail, who were good little bunnies, went down the lane to gather blackberries.

Let me take a shot at lining this all up. Here’s my hypothesis, such as it is: In the Egyptian text, ist is a subordinating particle, and r=f is again a generic “so”-type expression. If we drop r=f and replace ist with the non-subordinating iw, we would get iw wn, which is usually translated “There were/is.”

   
sd-mHw | sXa.wt | nDs.wt
linen-tail | hare-FPL | little-FPL
Linen-tail, little hares,

I should probably move wn down from the first line, and insert it between the names and “little hares.”

   
nfr | biA.t=sn | hA.n=sn
good | character-F=3PL | go.down-PRF=3PL
their character was good—they went down

nfr biA.t=sn is a perfectly normal “adjective noun” clause with the meaning given here. At least I think the sn belongs there, and not at the start of the next clause. And I think that’s the right way to conjugate hAi.

         
r | wA.t | tn | r | in.t | bni.wt
to | lane-F | DEM.FSG | for | go.get-INF | sweet.fruit-FPL
to that lane to go get sweet fruit.

The translators say bnriwt is “sweet fruit.” According to Wikipedia:

Quote:
Finally, it sometimes happens that the pronunciation of words might be changed because of their connection to Ancient Egyptian: in this case, it is not rare for writing to adopt a compromise in notation, the two readings being indicated jointly. For example, the adjective bnj, “sweet” became bnr. In Middle Egyptian, one can write:

Code:
b-n:r-i-M30
– bnrj (written b+n+r+i, with determinative)

which is fully read as bnr, the j not being pronounced but retained in order to keep a written connection with the ancient word (in the same fashion as the English language words through, knife, or victuals, which are no longer pronounced the way they are written.)

There seems to be some confusion between bni and bni.t in my dictionaries. The former is usually given as “dates” (at least with the N33 circle determinative), and the latter as “date tree.”

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emk
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 Message 37 of 43
05 December 2014 at 3:16pm | IP Logged 
[Periodic reminder: Team Egyptian is not a TAC team. We're too disorganized to "totally annihilate" anything. :-) ]

It's been a long time since I posted to the Team Egyptian thread. But I haven't given up on my Egyptian studies, and I've been making slow-but-steady progress. I'm somewhere around lesson 67 in the Assimil course. And I've heard from at least one other team member that they've resumed their studies, so it's a good time to revisit this thread.

If people are interested, we have an open "challenge" from last spring, based on an inscription from Karnak:

emk wrote:
Don't forget, we still have two more columns left on our second challenge. :-) No rush; I just don't want us to forget it completely.

I've updated the transliteration below to match the conventions used on hierogl.ch.

Quote:

i*(mn:n:n)-<-C1\*C12-N36-ms*s*sw->
X8*anx-f-nb-s*(n:(b*Y1v))-nb
Aw-t*ib-nb-(ra:ra)*mi-nb

This time, we have transliterations courtesy of Cfeetk:

imn n(y) ra-ms-sw-mry-imn
d=f anx nb snb nb
Awt-ib nb(t) mi ra ra nb

Anybody interested in trying their hand at a translation? Most of what you need can be found around Assimil lessons 29 and 30.

Good luck!
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Teango
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 Message 38 of 43
22 December 2014 at 8:01pm | IP Logged 
I resumed my long forlorn Egyptian studies last week with a little spry challenge to stimulate my grey matter and conclude the year: Champollion’s Challenge. I hope that this will bring me up to a level soon where I can start on these excellent open translation challenges set by emk.

I've also got James Allen's third (2014) edition of "Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs" on order, which I'm looking forward to reading in the new year. Along with the prospect of diving into the hieroglyphic version of "The Tale of Peter Rabbit" further down the line, my motivation to move forwards in Assimil is currently high, and when I think about the incredible history of this ancient language and culture, being able to read even snippets of hieroglyphics in movies, museums, and media is very rewarding.

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emk
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 Message 39 of 43
22 December 2014 at 8:43pm | IP Logged 
Sounds good! I'll be keeping an eye on your log, and looking forward to your work on the challenge. And if you finish that one, I'll be sure to find another!
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Teango
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 Message 40 of 43
29 December 2014 at 8:37pm | IP Logged 
Just a little update here... I've reached about a third of the way through Assimil's "L'Égyptien hiéroglyphique" now, and am thoroughly enjoying Allen's "Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs". Grammar and vocabulary are finally starting to stick, and translating texts has become noticeably faster and more comfortable. I'm still several dynasties away from completing these books, but I feel I'm one step closer to unearthing the previously hidden mysteries of this ancient language.

@emk
I agree that our previous target of finishing Assimil by May 2015 may have been somewhat prematurely optimistic (at least for me anyhow). I notice you've got about 33 lessons left to go, whilst I have about twice that number looming ahead of me. How about we extend the deadline by 1 year, and aim for completing Monsieur Guglielmi's tome by the end of May 2016 instead? If I stick to one lesson a week, following the completion of my current 2 week challenge, I should be able to just about reach that new finishing line in time without getting lost in a sandstorm or being mugged by a mummy. ;)



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