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Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 4095 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German
| Message 313 of 319 12 May 2014 at 10:10pm | IP Logged |
s_allard wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I would say that 100 long posts would be enough to
show my writing skills (or lack thereof in
certain languages), and the 8333 (now 8334) posts are more like af test of stamina.
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Why 100 posts? That seems like a lot. I don't have a specific number myself, but, not
surprisingly, I tend to favour
the other end of the spectrum. I would say that two long posts (minimum 200 words) are
enough to get a good
idea of the writing proficiency. Then add another post just to confirm. So I'm looking
at three posts.
My reasoning is that within a specific writing genre such as these posts the quality of
production does not vary
much from one sample to the next. By quality I mean the ability to construct sentences
of a certain complexity
and variety. |
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Agree with s_allard. 3 posts are enough.
For advanced language usage, I look not for the vocabulary size, but at how the writer
manipulates the language, constructing sentences which act as conduits in which ideas
flow effortlessly.
Often, the sentences which make me go "man I wish I could write like that" do not
contain any vocab that I myself could not use. But the way the sentences are created is
of a complexity that is far above what I can generate.
Edited by Gemuse on 13 May 2014 at 9:00am
1 person has voted this message useful
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6610 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish
| Message 314 of 319 13 May 2014 at 12:14am | IP Logged |
This just means that you already have a decent vocabulary and want to use it more elegantly. We all have different strengths.
1 person has voted this message useful
| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4678 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese
| Message 315 of 319 13 May 2014 at 12:24am | IP Logged |
s_allard wrote:
Iversen wrote:
I would say that 100 long posts would be enough to
show my writing skills (or lack thereof in
certain languages), and the 8333 (now 8334) posts are more like af test of stamina.
.... |
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Why 100 posts? That seems like a lot. I don't have a specific number myself, but, not
surprisingly, I tend to favour
the other end of the spectrum. |
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I'd agree that a handful of posts (each of say 100 words or so) would probably be
enough to pigeonhole you both as advanced speakers (well, writers, I suppose). Beyond
that you'd start to pick on the occasional typo or slip up, and native speakers make
plenty of those too.
Conversely, you can probably spot a weak writer in just one or two posts of reasonable
length. I, for one, would struggle to reproduce this simple post in French, for
example. Make me write 200 words and you'd soon spot my rather poor French writing
skills.
With a speaking test of, say, 20 minutes, you are naturally limited in how many words
you can use: surely it would be painful to listen to someone rattle on, no matter how
eloquently, at 150 wpm for 20 minutes? That's only 3000 words. Throw in thinking time
and getting a word in edgeways and you are down to 1000. Now cull the repeat offenders
and you'll be lucky to get over a a few hundred. I suspect that, as with the "read the
posts" test, your ballpark score is determined in the first few minutes.
1 person has voted this message useful
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5443 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish
| Message 316 of 319 13 May 2014 at 8:13am | IP Logged |
It seems to me that the size of the sample of oral or written sample necessary for the assessment of a candidate's
language proficiency is shrinking. After a couple of paragraphs the reader has an idea of the writer's skill; after a
minute or two of speaking, the listener has an idea of the speaker's level. We may read and listen more to make a
final assessment but it seems curious that most of the assessment requires a relatively small sample, especially for
the experienced examiner who has heard many candidates. Remember, again, that we are assessing linguistic ability
and not literary skills.
Edited by s_allard on 13 May 2014 at 2:38pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| luke Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 7218 days ago 3133 posts - 4351 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: Esperanto, French
| Message 317 of 319 13 May 2014 at 11:15am | IP Logged |
If the test is meant to have any prestige, the test can't permit easy gaming in which someone can be rated at a level far above what they can do in the real world. Take the FSI for example, although we can say something similar about a CEFR rating. If a diplomat arrives at his/her post and cannot use the language effectively, the embassy will be upset that they have a new employee who cannot do the job. Similarly, if an employer sees a high CEFR level which was the result of a brief test, they could find out over the course of a day or a week that the employee doesn't have the vocabulary or ability to communicate with the nuance necessary for a postition. If that were the case, the CEFR would lose credibility.
Edited by luke on 13 May 2014 at 11:18am
2 persons have voted this message useful
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5443 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish
| Message 318 of 319 13 May 2014 at 2:53pm | IP Logged |
I think the idea of gaming the CFER tests is far overblown. How could a B2 level candidate speak with examiners at
a C2 level for 20 minutes? Does anyone believe that you can recite some memorized texts in a discussion and
convince people that you are better speaker than you really are?
So, the question is: how large and varied do test samples have to be to allow us to determine accurately a
candidate's language proficiency? I'm sure that this question is still keeping researchers busy. We've seen that using
the example of posts here at HTLAL, the answer ranges from three to 100 posts for the assessment of writing
ability. Does anybody have other suggestions?
Edited by s_allard on 13 May 2014 at 2:54pm
1 person has voted this message useful
| shk00design Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 4457 days ago 747 posts - 1123 votes Speaks: Cantonese*, English, Mandarin Studies: French
| Message 319 of 319 24 May 2014 at 3:48am | IP Logged |
Today our family had some visitors from the US. The 2 kids have taken some Mandarin classes but when
asked to say a few simple words they were silent. Regardless which language you're learning the
bottom-line is not only to keep up with regular classes but to make extra efforts to read books, listen to
the radio & TV programs regularly.
Personally I have a routine of watching certain # hours of programming in French & Mandarin. Since
English is my strong language I would restrict my TV viewing to only the news. I don't know all the
Chinese characters in a newspaper but I can recognize at least 80% to get the context of an article. 100
years later we would be having this discussion and I'd be saying the same thing. The more exposure you
have in a language initially the further ahead you'd be later on.
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