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Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5588 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 145 of 178

12 August 2015 at 1:33am | IP Logged

Yes but, Josquin, you are aware of these cultural differences and that
many English speakers aren't, why not try and be a bit more tactful? To me the
word bullshit doesn't just imply that the other person's argument is deeply
flawed, it also implies a complete lack of respect for the person with the
flawed argument. That's why it hurts so much.

Also it's all very well you saying that you don't concoct theories about a
language you haven't learned to a reasonable level using Wikipedia articles,
well I in contrast would. Part of the joy of languages is not just learning to
speak (etc) but also seeing how things fit together and relate to the history
of the language, so if I come up with an idea I find interesting, of course I
will want to share it. Few people (certainly not me!) have time to learn
every single language that interests them in this way to a decent level.

Of course 9 times out of 10 such theories will prove to be nonsense, and if
someone such as yourself corrected me by explaining why my ideas are wrong,
I'd be very grateful; if however they instead said that this idea that had so interested me and that I was so excited to be sharing was bullshit, I wouldn't
be grateful at all because they'd have just made me feel about two inches
tall. If this happened a few times, I probably would stop posting, yeah.

Edited by Random review on 12 August 2015 at 1:35am
6 persons have voted this message useful

Luso
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Portugal
Joined 5866 days ago
819 posts - 1812 votes

Speaks: Portuguese*, French, English^C2, German^B1, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Sanskrit, Arabic (classical)

Message 146 of 178

12 August 2015 at 1:53am | IP Logged

@ Josquin:

There was no sarcasm involved. Actually, it was supposed to be quite the opposite: a compliment.

First of all, I consider you to be one of the most helpful members of this forum. When I was participating in TAC with German (once or twice) you were always present to help us, often with correction of long texts, along with extensive explanations of what correct German would be. Believe me, the idea of offending you couldn't be farther from my mind.

Second, I singled out this example because I've been tempted to use the same kind of wording more than once, when some non-native decides to throw obscure articles and "studies" at me about the language I've been using all my life. What's more, a few times I've had the cooperation (never the opposition, as far as I can remember) of some of the Brazilians in this forum. But, as you know, some people are not easily deterred.

Third, it was just to show how a person from a different background could fail to display the public confidence and directness you did in that instance.

Fourth, your post above only illustrates what I meant to say: you're not afraid to stand for your points of view.

Fifth, I could have written most of your post myself: the "directness", the "mild expletives", the "boring", and a few others.

All of this having been said (and, I hope, clarified), I cannot apologise for any sarcasm or irony, because there was none intended.

Of course, you can be offended and / or irritated if you think I misquoted or misrepresented you in some way (albeit involuntarily). If that's the case, I'm sorry.

I'll end this like I began: it was meant as a compliment.

I hope this settles it. If not, you can always let me know (here or by PM).
7 persons have voted this message useful

aokoye
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5346 days ago
235 posts - 453 votes

Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Dutch, Norwegian, Japanese

Message 147 of 178

12 August 2015 at 2:21am | IP Logged

Random review wrote:

Yes but, Josquin, you are aware of these cultural differences and
that
many English speakers aren't, why not try and be a bit more tactful? To me the
word bullshit doesn't just imply that the other person's argument is deeply
flawed, it also implies a complete lack of respect for the person with the
flawed argument. That's why it hurts so much.

Also it's all very well you saying that you don't concoct theories about a
language you haven't learned to a reasonable level using Wikipedia articles,
well I in contrast would. Part of the joy of languages is not just learning to
speak (etc) but also seeing how things fit together and relate to the history
of the language, so if I come up with an idea I find interesting, of course I
will want to share it. Few people (certainly not me!) have time to learn
every single language that interests them in this way to a decent level.

Of course 9 times out of 10 such theories will prove to be nonsense, and if
someone such as yourself corrected me by explaining why my ideas are wrong,
I'd be very grateful; if however they instead said that this idea that had so interested me and that I
was so excited to be sharing was bullshit, I wouldn't
be grateful at all because they'd have just made me feel about two inches
tall. If this happened a few times, I probably would stop posting, yeah.

The problem (or one of them) is that the OP in that thread seems to be rather emphatic and hard
nosed on the idea that learning the preterite in German isn't something that is useful. The opposite
was said a number of times by multiple people (including native speakers), the OP kept saying
otherwise and went so far as to quote a wikipedia article despite the fact that native speakers
were telling them that the preterite is used in German. I don't think there was any need for Josquin to
be any more tactful than they were. This was/is a case of people needing to listen to those who are
"on the ground"/using the language as native speakers.
5 persons have voted this message useful

Via Diva
Diglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
last.fm/user/viadivaRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 4039 days ago
1109 posts - 1427 votes

Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German, Italian, French, Swedish, Esperanto, Czech, Greek

Message 148 of 178

12 August 2015 at 4:34am | IP Logged

If I were relying on Wikipedia so hard I wouldn't trust a native speaker about the question asked, I would love to be corrected as harsh as possible so I'd never think that way again.
But that's what I would want.

I do notice some boring or recurring topics too. I wouldn't create a thread to ask a small question about German, but rather use my log, or create ONE thread for all the questions about German from all users, not just from me.
I would also do a Google search before asking (why don't people usually do that?).

Edited by Via Diva on 12 August 2015 at 4:35am
2 persons have voted this message useful

Solfrid Cristin
Heptaglot
Winner TAC 2011 & 2012
Senior Member
Norway
Joined 5139 days ago
4143 posts - 8864 votes

Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian
Studies: Russian

Message 149 of 178

12 August 2015 at 7:20am | IP Logged

Luso wrote:

@ Josquin:

There was no sarcasm involved. Actually, it was supposed to be quite the opposite: a compliment.

First of all, I consider you to be one of the most helpful members of this forum. When I was participating in
TAC with German (once or twice) you were always present to help us, often with correction of long texts,
along with extensive explanations of what correct German would be. Believe me, the idea of offending you
couldn't be farther from my mind.

Second, I singled out this example because I've been tempted to use the same kind of wording more than
once, when some non-native decides to throw obscure articles and "studies" at me about the language I've
been using all my life. What's more, a few times I've had the cooperation (never the opposition, as far as I
can remember) of some of the Brazilians in this forum. But, as you know, some people are not easily
deterred.

Third, it was just to show how a person from a different background could fail to display the public confidence
and directness you did in that instance.

Fourth, your post above only illustrates what I meant to say: you're not afraid to stand for your points of view.

Fifth, I could have written most of your post myself: the "directness", the "mild expletives", the "boring", and a
few others.

All of this having been said (and, I hope, clarified), I cannot apologise for any sarcasm or irony, because there
was none intended.

Of course, you can be offended and / or irritated if you think I misquoted or misrepresented you in some way
(albeit involuntarily). If that's the case, I'm sorry.

I'll end this like I began: it was meant as a compliment.

I hope this settles it. If not, you can always let me know (here or by PM).

I also understood this as a compliment to Josquin and to the art of calling a spade a spade, I am happy that I
interpreted it the right way.

And I would also love to see more vivid discussions. Right now I feel at a point where the limitations make me
unable to breathe. Like Josquin I have come to a point where the 89th question on whether to chose French
or Spanish fails to catch my interest, and I would have loved to see discussions on life, death, love, politics,
religion and cultural differences. Do I want anyone to be treated with disrespect? No. Never. Not for any
reason. But the basic notion that hearing views that you disagree with, is disrespect, makes me want to
empty the content of my stomach. We have two ears and only one mouth for a reason, and it is when I hear
views that I disagree with, even views which I find deeply offensive, that I learn and grow. This could have
been a place where we could have learned so much from each other, learned about the different cultures and
why people think the way they do. We have chosen for it not to be, because of self imposed limitations. We
could have quarreled, fought, screamed at each other, and yet loved each other at the end of the day. And
learned, and gotten more insight, and even yes: Actually made the world a better place. If anyone could have,
we could have.

One of my most beloved song writers, Tom Lehrer stopped writiting songs when Kissinger and Le Duc Tho
received the Nobel peace price, considering that the absurdity of life went beyond the absurdity of his own
songs. I am starting to understand his point if view. Sitting in Moscow and hearing people questioning the
motivation for why people want more free speech makes me lost for words. And I am not often lost for words.

It looks like the deluge happens on August 22nd. I disappear to Siberia and go off line that day, for which I
am right now deeply grateful. I am hoping that things will have sorted themselves out by the time I get back.
And that whatever happens and wherever we end up, it will be in an environment where we do not have more
limitations that we need to.

And like a good little Norwegian I would normally have apologized for any offense anyone might feel, but if
there is anything I have learned from Russian culture it is to speak my mind and not pussyfoot around the
issues. If that makes you feel I am a troll, then be my guest. Trolls are a Norwegian invention, anyhow. And
this Norwegian troll will from now on try to not even follow this discussion, as it interferes with my studies and
makes my otherwise excellent blood pressure rise to dangerous levels. I will try to limit myself to my blog and
to whatever frivolous threads I can think of starting. And try to remember why I love to come to this place. To
have fun. Do you even remember when we last had fun?
8 persons have voted this message useful

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5588 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 150 of 178

12 August 2015 at 9:27am | IP Logged

aokoye wrote:

Random review wrote:

Yes but, Josquin, you are aware
of these cultural differences and
that
many English speakers aren't, why not try and be a bit more tactful? To me the
word bullshit doesn't just imply that the other person's argument is deeply
flawed, it also implies a complete lack of respect for the person with the
flawed argument. That's why it hurts so much.

Also it's all very well you saying that you don't concoct theories about a
language you haven't learned to a reasonable level using Wikipedia articles,
well I in contrast would. Part of the joy of languages is not just learning to
speak (etc) but also seeing how things fit together and relate to the history
of the language, so if I come up with an idea I find interesting, of course I
will want to share it. Few people (certainly not me!) have time to learn
every single language that interests them in this way to a decent level.

Of course 9 times out of 10 such theories will prove to be nonsense, and if
someone such as yourself corrected me by explaining why my ideas are wrong,
I'd be very grateful; if however they instead said that this idea that had so
interested me and that I
was so excited to be sharing was bullshit, I wouldn't
be grateful at all because they'd have just made me feel about two inches
tall. If this happened a few times, I probably would stop posting, yeah.

The problem (or one of them) is that the OP in that thread seems to be rather
emphatic and hard
nosed on the idea that learning the preterite in German isn't something that
is useful. The opposite
was said a number of times by multiple people (including native speakers), the
OP kept saying
otherwise and went so far as to quote a wikipedia article despite the fact
that native speakers
were telling them that the preterite is used in German. I don't think there
was any need for Josquin to
be any more tactful than they were. This was/is a case of people needing to
listen to those who are
"on the ground"/using the language as native speakers.

I've been corrected in this way by an educated native speaker (mrwarper) and,
while it hurt a bit and I wasn't necessarily very happy at the time, he's
still one of my favourite posters and I am grateful to him for putting me
straight. That wouldn't have happened if he'd jumped straight in and called me
out on bullshit. He just stuck to the facts.

Paradoxically the more you disrespect someone in correcting them, the more
they are likely to stick to their guns in the face of all the evidence, at
least in my experience.
4 persons have voted this message useful

Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5588 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

Message 151 of 178

12 August 2015 at 9:41am | IP Logged

Solfrid Cristin wrote:

Luso wrote:

@ Josquin:

There was no sarcasm involved. Actually, it was supposed to be quite the
opposite: a compliment.

First of all, I consider you to be one of the most helpful members of this
forum. When I was participating in
TAC with German (once or twice) you were always present to help us, often with
correction of long texts,
along with extensive explanations of what correct German would be. Believe me,
the idea of offending you
couldn't be farther from my mind.

Second, I singled out this example because I've been tempted to use the same
kind of wording more than
once, when some non-native decides to throw obscure articles and "studies" at
me about the language I've
been using all my life. What's more, a few times I've had the cooperation
(never the opposition, as far as I
can remember) of some of the Brazilians in this forum. But, as you know, some
people are not easily
deterred.

Third, it was just to show how a person from a different background could fail
to display the public confidence
and directness you did in that instance.

Fourth, your post above only illustrates what I meant to say: you're not
afraid to stand for your points of view.

Fifth, I could have written most of your post myself: the "directness", the
"mild expletives", the "boring", and a
few others.

All of this having been said (and, I hope, clarified), I cannot apologise for
any sarcasm or irony, because there
was none intended.

Of course, you can be offended and / or irritated if you think I misquoted or
misrepresented you in some way
(albeit involuntarily). If that's the case, I'm sorry.

I'll end this like I began: it was meant as a compliment.

I hope this settles it. If not, you can always let me know (here or by PM).

I also understood this as a compliment to Josquin and to the art of calling a
spade a spade, I am happy that I
interpreted it the right way.

And I would also love to see more vivid discussions. Right now I feel at a
point where the limitations make me
unable to breathe. Like Josquin I have come to a point where the 89th question
on whether to chose French
or Spanish fails to catch my interest, and I would have loved to see
discussions on life, death, love, politics,
religion and cultural differences. Do I want anyone to be treated with
disrespect? No. Never. Not for any
reason. But the basic notion that hearing views that you disagree with, is
disrespect, makes me want to
empty the content of my stomach. We have two ears and only one mouth for a
reason, and it is when I hear
views that I disagree with, even views which I find deeply offensive, that I
learn and grow. This could have
been a place where we could have learned so much from each other, learned
about the different cultures and
why people think the way they do. We have chosen for it not to be, because of
self imposed limitations. We
could have quarreled, fought, screamed at each other, and yet loved each other
at the end of the day. And
learned, and gotten more insight, and even yes: Actually made the world a
better place. If anyone could have,
we could have.

One of my most beloved song writers, Tom Lehrer stopped writiting songs when
Kissinger and Le Duc Tho
received the Nobel peace price, considering that the absurdity of life went
beyond the absurdity of his own
songs. I am starting to understand his point if view. Sitting in Moscow and
hearing people questioning the
motivation for why people want more free speech makes me lost for words. And I
am not often lost for words.

It looks like the deluge happens on August 22nd. I disappear to Siberia and go
off line that day, for which I
am right now deeply grateful. I am hoping that things will have sorted
themselves out by the time I get back.
And that whatever happens and wherever we end up, it will be in an environment
where we do not have more
limitations that we need to.

And like a good little Norwegian I would normally have apologized for any
offense anyone might feel, but if
there is anything I have learned from Russian culture it is to speak my mind
and not pussyfoot around the
issues. If that makes you feel I am a troll, then be my guest. Trolls are a
Norwegian invention, anyhow. And
this Norwegian troll will from now on try to not even follow this discussion,
as it interferes with my studies and
makes my otherwise excellent blood pressure rise to dangerous levels. I will
try to limit myself to my blog and
to whatever frivolous threads I can think of starting. And try to remember why
I love to come to this place. To
have fun. Do you even remember when we last had fun?

I too wish we could talk about politics. I'm not suggesting that we turn this
place into a political debate forum but equally you can't separate life from
politics because everything connects. So many language discussions have to
pass through politics to do them justice (file sharing, the issue of dialects,
language death, prescriptive vs descriptive grammar, etc) and if (like here)
ban all political discussion, what you get is actually one political view (the
mainstream) reigning supreme. I've lost count of the number of times on here
someone has said something as if it were incontestable because it's part of
mainstream conventional wisdom and I've thought, " hold on, that's actually a
political view and shouldn't just be uncritically accepted like a law of the
universe".

As far as the rules on politeness, etc are concerned, I think it's a case of
"swings and roundabouts" as we say in the UK. I'm a member of another forum
where the rules are far more relaxed (basically don't say anything racist or
illegal, don't deliberately troll or flame) and it definitely leads to more
bickering. It has pros and cons.

Edited by Random review on 12 August 2015 at 9:44am
6 persons have voted this message useful

Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6402 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes

4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, Finnish^C1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

Message 152 of 178

12 August 2015 at 9:42am | IP Logged

Quote:

We could have quarreled, fought, screamed at each other, and yet loved each other at the end of the day. And learned, and gotten more insight, and even yes: Actually made the world a better place. If anyone could have,we could have.

This sounds nice in theory, but so far it seems very much like the rest of the Internet. People want to have freedom to use discriminatory language, but don't want me to use the shocking m-word. (There's no radical change either. Sexism and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments are already not welcome. Another human being's dignity is not a matter of opinion)

I think this kind of stuff works better in person than online. Have you actually participated in a forum/community allowing politics and other (highly) controversial things online? On the other forum, there was a question about experiences, and apparently political grudges tend to carry over to non-political areas of the forum.

It also seems like the ones not having fun are those who get less enjoyment out of discussions of linguistics/polyglottery/methods. And it would certainly be great to have more topics on themes like travel and culture. A lot of great posts about that are in the log subforum. And similarly, linguistic discussions could be more accessible.

4 persons have voted this message useful

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