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Fate of HTLAL

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Juаn
Senior Member
Colombia
Joined 5150 days ago
727 posts - 1830 votes 
Speaks: Spanish*

 
 Message 161 of 178
12 August 2015 at 7:04pm | IP Logged 
What I fail to understand is, for those who do not wish to discuss certain topics, how does it affect them if others do?

I have no interest in Esperanto, technology, or science fiction, fantasy and zombie stories. Would it make any sense for me to demand that discussions related to them be banned?

An offtopic forum (either here or at the new place) would make visiting the site more interesting, something that is crucially needed to retain and elicit participation from more experienced and knowledgeable members, who otherwise might find elementary language-learning discussions plainly boring and drift away for good.

For those who find this or that topic objectionable, there exists an optimal solution - do not read or participate in discussions related to them. Why on Earth though prevent others who wish to have a conversation from doing so?
8 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6402 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 162 of 178
12 August 2015 at 7:50pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:

Serpent wrote:
It also seems like the ones not having fun are those who get less enjoyment out of discussions of linguistics/polyglottery/methods. And it would certainly be great to have more topics on themes like travel and culture.

That’s exactly the point! I don’t study languages, because I want to find the best version of Assimil for this language...

You can’t study Hebrew seriously without dealing with the history of Israel. However, I’m not allowed to talk about it on this forum. You can’t even study Irish without being confronted with the language politics of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland and their bloody common history. Yet, it’s a no-go topic here.

...Also, I don’t study languages because I love Anki, it’s because I love languages!

...The only group whose needs this forum really caters to is the language afficionados who learn languages as some kind of sport, get satisfaction out of discussing methods and materials, and push each other to studying more by doing challenges.

...But perhaps we could get a little bit more relaxed and not panic every time the discussion remotely touches on anything political. As I said, I learn languages because they are spoken in the real world and not because I love textbooks.


Well, I don't love textbooks either. And I agree that linguistic discussions have declined. I'm not sure it makes sense to claim someone else's interest is less real though. I think a major factor is that humanities have been balanced out by science here. Thanks to HTLAL, adults who used to think they're not wired for languages are now successfully learning them.

There are also more and more young members who contribute more than just asking "should I learn Spanish or Japanese?" and disappearing. Think of those like Cavesa and Via Diva, who combine both factors I mentioned.

You may be too pessimistic about shutting down interesting discussions. Generally there are several warnings about please staying on topic before threads are finally closed, unless they were offtopic to begin with.

One thing I'm sure about is that we should all respect each other's motivation to learn languages, whether it's about practical needs, books, media, sports, travelling, meeting new people, understanding new cultures. HTLAL is already falling apart and we should bridge the gaps instead of letting them get wider.

Edited by Serpent on 12 August 2015 at 7:52pm
6 persons have voted this message useful



Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5588 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 163 of 178
12 August 2015 at 9:02pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:

Okay, while the word "bullshit" may sound a bit harsh to a native English
speaker, I still have to point out that I’m not a native speaker of English.
If I told a person they were talking "Schwachsinn" in German, this wouldn’t be
an insult. It would be disrespectful, but not an insult. Sorry, if I didn’t
get the implications of the word "bullshit" right. However, I have to repeat:
What’s the point in your complaining about my conduct? The insulted person
didn’t complain, in fact they didn’t even seem to bother what I called their
theories.



Josquin, don't play the innocent: in your entire post there's nothing that
gives away that you're not a native speaker, for the standard of your English,
you might as well be. I also think the difference between insulting someone
and being disrespectful is not so important here (in fact you are right that
"bullshit" is disrespectful and not an insult) the fact is that they both
diminish the person you are talking to. Nor am I complaining about it, I'm
just pointing out in the context of the discussion in this thread that if I
were treated like that a few times, I'd probably also stop posting.



Josquin wrote:

Okay, if I had the idea the preterite tense in German was imported from Low
German, because Upper German dialects have lost it, I might open a thread and
pose it as a question. However, in the thread in question, the OP wrote the
following:

LanguagePhysics wrote:
I have read that outside of Northern Germany, it is
rare to hear the preterite used in everyday spoken language and the present
perfect is used almost exclusively other than in a few basic verbs such as
"sein".

It seems outside of Northern Germany there is no real concept of the preterite
existing in the spoken language and it is something that is reserved only for
formal written language. In fact, it seems it could be argued that the only
reason the preterite is in frequent use in Northern Germany is because of the
influence of Low German upon the way High German is spoken, as Low German
makes frequent use of the preterite which can be seen in the way Dutch makes
frequent use of the preterite.

That considered, it seems the argument could be made that High German as it
was originally spoken before being the national language of Germany didn't
really have a preterite form and the reason the German language does today is
because it has been standardised based on the way people in Northern Germany
speak, which has been influenced by Low German and its heavy use of the
preterite.

The OP departs from the statement they have read something about German, which
leads them to some wild theories about the usage of the preterite in German
(which are wrong) and it’s historical reasons (which are complete nonsense).
As I said, my daily work is discussing theories and proving their validity, so
I voiced my criticism very directly. I’m sorry if I got carried away, but I’m
only a human being as well.


I don't think there is any problem with the fact you have given his theory
short shrift. The forum is a better place for you doing that. I don't even
think it's a problem that you (like most of us including me) are sometimes
disrespectful in the process because (as you admit below) something "gets your goat".

Josquin wrote:
I hope you don’t think this is my usual conduct in
discussions. Anyway, as I said, I might have got carried away, so I’ll try to
behave differently the next time. However, as I said, it’s exactly this cocky
behaviour of stating half-baked theories with a lot of self-confidence which
regularly gets my goat.


the point is that when good posters like yourself occasionally are
disrespectful, it is IMO a good thing that this forum has pretty strict
politeness rules in comparison to most. That was the context of this whole
discussion when Luso made his post (which looked sarcastic to me too BTW) and
I was only giving my opinion in this context. In other words I was arguing
against the relaxation of politeness rules in any new or revamped forum, not
complaining about your post.

As a German learner, I value the fact that knowledgeable people like yourself
are here to nip unfounded ideas like the ones in the post in question in the
bud before
learners like myself get taken in.

Edited by Random review on 12 August 2015 at 9:14pm
4 persons have voted this message useful



Josquin
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 4649 days ago
2266 posts - 3992 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish
Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian

 
 Message 164 of 178
12 August 2015 at 9:11pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Well, I don't love textbooks either. And I agree that linguistic discussions have declined. I'm not sure it makes sense to claim someone else's interest is less real though. I think a major factor is that humanities have been balanced out by science here. Thanks to HTLAL, adults who used to think they're not wired for languages are now successfully learning them.

There are also more and more young members who contribute more than just asking "should I learn Spanish or Japanese?" and disappearing. Think of those like Cavesa and Via Diva, who combine both factors I mentioned.

You may be too pessimistic about shutting down interesting discussions. Generally there are several warnings about please staying on topic before threads are finally closed, unless they were offtopic to begin with.

One thing I'm sure about is that we should all respect each other's motivation to learn languages, whether it's about practical needs, books, media, sports, travelling, meeting new people, understanding new cultures. HTLAL is already falling apart and we should bridge the gaps instead of letting them get wider.

Well, I'm not doubting other people's motivation to study languages. In fact, they seem very motivated, more motivated than I probably ever was. What I was voicing was my failure to understand this kind of motivation. But everybody according to their liking, I'm not questioning that.

What I really wanted to say with my post was that this forum has taken a development I don't particularly like. You say humanities have been balanced out by science. Well, I miss those philological arguments which seem to have been prevalent in the beginning of this forum, especially when the Professor was still active.

I would love to have more intellectual conversations here, but most people seem to be content with learning a language for speaking's sake. I do get that the name of this forum is "How To Learn Any Language", so I don't question the purpose of threads about methods and resources. In fact, thanks to this forum I've found some resources for Irish I would never have discovered on my own. However, it doesn't stop for me there.

I'd like to talk about the history of Irish, hear more about other Celtic languages, maybe get some insights in how they are related to other languages. The same goes for other languages. I'd love to know more about Russian and Japanese (and Arabic and Hindi and...). Those discussions used to exist (just have a look at the Philological Room or at Lessons in Polyglottery), but at some point they just stopped and I don't really know why.

I know the Professor somewhere complained online forums aren't scholarly enough. Maybe that is the problem. Maybe the forum was simply overrun by people who just wanted to learn their first foreign language and kept asking the typical newbie questions. I don't know.

In any case, a lot of interesting members who used to contribute very insightful posts have either left the forum (ProfArguelles, Arekkusu, lingoleng) or have been banned (Cainntear). This has changed the climate of the forum notably. To me, the old discussions they used to contribute to were more interesting than the ones we're having right now.

Having that in mind, I simply wanted to say that a certain type of learner is prevalent on the forum right now that is different from some years ago. And I also have to say I miss the old kind, because it was them who got me interested in this forum in the first place.

@Random review: Okay, I think I got your point. Let's just leave it there.

Edited by Josquin on 12 August 2015 at 9:16pm
4 persons have voted this message useful



Random review
Diglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 5588 days ago
781 posts - 1310 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Portuguese, Mandarin, Yiddish, German

 
 Message 165 of 178
12 August 2015 at 9:19pm | IP Logged 
@ Josquin: why leave it there? I probably didn't make my argument in the best
way there but there's surely a discussion to be had here over forum rules of
conduct. If I have come across as being on my high horse, I apologise.
1 person has voted this message useful



aokoye
Diglot
Senior Member
United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name
Joined 5346 days ago
235 posts - 453 votes 
Speaks: English*, German
Studies: Dutch, Norwegian, Japanese

 
 Message 166 of 178
12 August 2015 at 9:32pm | IP Logged 
tommus wrote:

For example, I have no problem with discussing foul language words or expressions, but I
am totally against the use of foul language in discussions. Foul language is a crutch for
those who lack the ability to communicate effectively.


We might have to agree to disagree on that one but there are plenty of educated, articulate, and
successful people who have a good command of language (which makes "articulate" redundant) who
swear like sailors. There are plenty of ways to communicate effectively and ineffectively and swearing
has next to nothing to do with that.
6 persons have voted this message useful



Josquin
Heptaglot
Senior Member
Germany
Joined 4649 days ago
2266 posts - 3992 votes 
Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish
Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian

 
 Message 167 of 178
12 August 2015 at 9:35pm | IP Logged 
Random review wrote:
@ Josquin: why leave it there? I probably didn't make my argument in the best way there but there's surely a discussion to be had here over forum rules of conduct. If I have come across as being on my high horse, I apologise.

No need to apologize! I agree that we should strive for being as polite as possible, but on the other hand it's not the end of the world for me if things get a bit heatened from time to time. As long as threads don't end up in screaming matches and people calling each other every name in the book, I'm fine, really.

As I said, I like the civilized atmosphere here, but I also feel that sometimes a little bit more freedom of speech would be nice. Maybe, I'm too pessimistic, I don't know, but I have experienced more than once that entire conversations have been deleted because of political content. And we are talking about conversations that were far from escalating, they were just political. I don't think that's really necessary for educated grown-ups, but FX thought differently, so he wins.

In fact, I feel like I have contributed everything I had to say concerning this topic and I'm starting to repeat myself. I don't want to sound like a broken record, so I'm out of this discussion now.

See you on Not-the-real-HTLAL or wherever we're going to end up!

Edited by Josquin on 12 August 2015 at 9:39pm
4 persons have voted this message useful



Chung
Diglot
Senior Member
Joined 6961 days ago
4228 posts - 8259 votes 
20 sounds
Speaks: English*, French
Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish

 
 Message 168 of 178
12 August 2015 at 9:50pm | IP Logged 
Josquin wrote:
Serpent wrote:
Well, I don't love textbooks either. And I agree that linguistic discussions have declined. I'm not sure it makes sense to claim someone else's interest is less real though. I think a major factor is that humanities have been balanced out by science here. Thanks to HTLAL, adults who used to think they're not wired for languages are now successfully learning them.

There are also more and more young members who contribute more than just asking "should I learn Spanish or Japanese?" and disappearing. Think of those like Cavesa and Via Diva, who combine both factors I mentioned.

You may be too pessimistic about shutting down interesting discussions. Generally there are several warnings about please staying on topic before threads are finally closed, unless they were offtopic to begin with.

One thing I'm sure about is that we should all respect each other's motivation to learn languages, whether it's about practical needs, books, media, sports, travelling, meeting new people, understanding new cultures. HTLAL is already falling apart and we should bridge the gaps instead of letting them get wider.

Well, I'm not doubting other people's motivation to study languages. In fact, they seem very motivated, more motivated than I probably ever was. What I was voicing was my failure to understand this kind of motivation. But everybody according to their liking, I'm not questioning that.

What I really wanted to say with my post was that this forum has taken a development I don't particularly like. You say humanities have been balanced out by science. Well, I miss those philological arguments which seem to have been prevalent in the beginning of this forum, especially when the Professor was still active.

I would love to have more intellectual conversations here, but most people seem to be content with learning a language for speaking's sake. I do get that the name of this forum is "How To Learn Any Language", so I don't question the purpose of threads about methods and resources. In fact, thanks to this forum I've found some resources for Irish I would never have discovered on my own. However, it doesn't stop for me there.

I'd like to talk about the history of Irish, hear more about other Celtic languages, maybe get some insights in how they are related to other languages. The same goes for other languages. I'd love to know more about Russian and Japanese (and Arabic and Hindi and...). Those discussions used to exist (just have a look at the Philological Room or at Lessons in Polyglottery), but at some point they just stopped and I don't really know why.

I know the Professor somewhere complained online forums aren't scholarly enough. Maybe that is the problem. Maybe the forum was simply overrun by people who just wanted to learn their first foreign language and kept asking the typical newbie questions. I don't know.


I suspect that this is part of the trend. I relish the chance to participate in threads involving Uralic, Slavonic or Turkic languages. However anything here beyond practical subjects such as learning material, strategies or maybe the occasional tidbit of intra-family comparison is beyond the ken of most people here (or would never even be brought forth). Thus what does get put up here doesn't often lead me to retyping a response from scratch. Instead I'd put in a link to relevant posts from a few years ago. For esoterica, I'm OK with the fact that I need to look elsewhere. For Uralic stuff online, I can usually scratch my itch by following this blog and this one. I don't get the motivation of Stolan who starts linguistically-tinged threads which at best are jumbled or laden with idiosyncratic comparisons/analogies and at worst little more than venting sessions against some aspect of mainstream linguistics.

Josquin wrote:
In any case, a lot of interesting members who used to contribute very insightful posts have either left the forum (ProfArguelles, Arekkusu, lingoleng) or have been banned (Cainntear). This has changed the climate of the forum notably. To me, the old discussions they used to contribute to were more interesting than the ones we're having right now.

Having that in mind, I simply wanted to say that a certain type of learner is prevalent on the forum right now that is different from some years ago. And I also have to say I miss the old kind, because it was them who got me interested in this forum in the first place.


This shift was inevitable as far I'm concerned. I'm still around but I've been posting less as I have less time to spend online than before in addition to the exhaustion of topics.

Josquin wrote:
@Random review: Okay, I think I got your point. Let's just leave it there.



3 persons have voted this message useful



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