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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5010 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 625 of 1317 15 July 2013 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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Yes, we know learning takes time and of course we try to spend it more efficiently to reduce the amount of time. But I think the 10000 hours is just a nice reminder that some parts of learning are quite impossible to shorten, no matter whether they take 300 hours, 2000, or 15 000, and seeing this number might sometimes even have a soothing effect (like "I have a right to not be perfect and make mistakes. after all, I still haven't spent that much time on the language"). I wouldn't blame the number for pointlessly selling books, I believe there are worse ideas doing that.
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| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 626 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 12:51am | IP Logged | ||
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I have no objection to the use of any number if that can have a positive effect on the learner. My only quibble is that
this number becomes a gospel, as is the case with the 10,000 hour figure. On the other hand, I believe that it is possible to shorten learning times with the right methods and tools. Let's say that I work with a really good tutor, I might be able to clean up my mistakes and significantly improve my speaking ability with 40 hours of one on one tutoring instead of wandering around in the wilderness for 150 hours on my own. Or I find a great book that really speaks to me and speeds up the learning process. This is why we are here and this is what makes the logs interesting. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4689 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 627 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 1:13am | IP Logged | ||
Seems a little counter-intuitive, and certainly not scientific, but I can imagine that he may have a point. For one, I think it's just that increasing input is almost always easier to do than increasing output. But furthermore, I've personally experienced some success with this (though I haven't been nearly so committed, and my results reflect that). I think it's best if you at least keep up with regular output rather than going silent (but it's not like I'm worried that'd happen to you anytime soon). Yet I've found myself unexpectedly producing certain output intuitively, instantly and "fluently" in German, and then realized that it was the result of massive input coming to fruition months later. I hear, e.g., the gender of a word in context enough times and it sounds so odd to use the wrong one that I wouldn't think to get it wrong. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 5010 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 628 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 1:39am | IP Logged | ||
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I have the same experience, Geoff. (Even though not with German yet)
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| patrickwilken Senior Member Germany radiant-flux.net Joined 4534 days ago 1546 posts - 3200 votes Studies: German | Message 629 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged | ||
I have been reading Ericsson a bit, and he says quite clearly that there is no such thing as a 10000 hour rule. The point is just that it takes a long time to be an expert. The original 10000 hour number came from students in a music school in Berlin, and 10000 hours was about how long the expert students had worked up to that point. There was absolutely no indication that those students were then at the peak of their career and could now stop studying. How long? That depends in part on how competitive the field is. The amount of time you need to practice for an Olympic gold medal has been going up and up since the Games restarted. To me the more interesting question is how many hours do I need to get to C1 German, and then later C2. My guess is that I need to do somewhere in the range of 1500-2000 hours work for solid C1 and then perhaps 3-4x more for early C2. Or to put it another way about two years solid study to get comfortably into C1, and then some more years to get to C2. But crossing the line into C2 is not the end goal. C2 is just when you start really being able to use nuance and shades of meaning in language, and to really get good takes a lifetime. My English is still improving after more than +45 years, but I work as an editor and write and so I am clearly applying something like deliberative practice - but my English remains nowhere near as good as some people who have been working hard as writers for many many years. Edited by patrickwilken on 16 July 2013 at 10:23am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5431 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 630 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 11:22am | IP Logged | ||
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Just as a little footnote to this discussion of the so-called 10,000 hour rule, I thnik of the many people here at
HTLAL, myself included, who profess to speak three, four or more languages. French is considered one of the easiest languages to learn for English-speakers. I shudder to think what learning Russian or Arabic must be like. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 emk Diglot Moderator United States Joined 5533 days ago 2615 posts - 8806 votes Speaks: English*, FrenchB2 Studies: Spanish, Ancient Egyptian Personal Language Map | Message 631 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | ||
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If you wish to discuss the 10,000 hour rule, please start a new thread in one of the public forums. This topic is now closed, as far as my log is concerned. Thank you.
Some things which I am currently enjoying in French I've got a whole mess of French media lying around the house, and I'm randomly tackling whatever is at hand when I have a spare moment. So I'm in the middle of about 10 different things. A few are listed below. La Trilogie Nikopol. A classic BD, which I think lorinth recommended a few pages ago. The author grew up in Yugoslavia under Tito, which probably explains the fascist dystopian Paris he created for this BD. Considered as a work of art, La Trilogie Nikopol is so far a lot more substantial than L'Incal. There's a certain dry humor underlying this story. Kaamelott. Funny, and a good challenge. The subtitles are abbreviated but otherwise reasonably accurate. I like the really short episodes. Le Trône de fer. More blood, sex and conspiracy, of course. (I've read several of the books in English, so this comes as no surprise.) Angel, season 2. It looks like this series is finally digging in and getting serious after a rather casual first season. Apparently there's a couple of good seasons before it wanders off and gets lost. L'Homme des jeux. In honor of the recent death of Ian M. Banks, I'm reading the French translation of one of his Culture novels. This is an excellent and enjoyable piece of SF by a master, and the French translation is pretty reasonable. Edited by emk on 16 July 2013 at 3:49pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4689 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 632 of 1317 16 July 2013 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | ||
Looks like this is the TV show, not the book? Are you reading the book(s) in French? I went through the first season of the series with the US DVDs with the French dubbing and subs that came with it about 6 months ago, but I'm still working on finishing the first book. I had put it aside for a few months because it was a bit too advanced for me to enjoy at the time--I wanted to get your take on how hard it is for you to keep up with the vocab in this one. (BTW, this is one of those books that are written in English, popular, and I've read, but never in English. I read it in German, and then dove in with both French and Italian translations and read book 2 in Dutch.) EDIT: Holy run-on sentence, Batman! Added a period and the hyphen. Edited by geoffw on 16 July 2013 at 4:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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