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We, who manage to focus on ONE language

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casamata
Senior Member
Joined 4260 days ago
237 posts - 377 votes 
Studies: Portuguese

 
 Message 73 of 142
22 August 2013 at 9:39pm | IP Logged 
mike245 wrote:
casamata wrote:
True, mariposa is a word that HS students learn, I think. I'm impressed that you know "beaver." Your Spanish must be pretty good. :)

With the beaver/cucumber example, if you follow up then you will learn the words. So I'm saying that if one practices enough, then they will learn a lot of the language but if they are practicing 5 or 10 languages, they may not get the chances to learn more advanced vocabulary. (though cucumber isn't probably an advanced word) Maybe something like eggplant? But those are just the denotations. Knowing about the connotations of words and the *appropriate* words that are actually used is very important to. For instance, this last year I learned that to say "scalpel" in Spanish the word "escalpelo" is not used. Bisturí, rather, is the "common" term. And yes, knowing something like scalpel is really important to some people, especially in the hospital. If I say escalpelo, people would look at me and think, "where this guy from? He ain't from round these parts, is he?"

Just making yourself understood and sounding good are too different things, as well. I think of the asian actors in movies that say things like "me love you long time" in very accented English. The message is conveyed, but it sounds like crap.


I'm from California, so I actually have to use Spanish for more than casual tourist interactions. Words like "castor" and even "bisturí" are things that I learned a long time ago, hear on television, and use occasionally.

I think the rest of one's vocabulary can be circumstances driven. For instance, I love food and spend a lot of time exploring restaurants in different countries. So knowing words like eggplant or buckwheat flour in different languages is useful and important, at least in languages for countries where those foods/ingredients are used. I also need to know words like hand baggage, train platform, discounted admission tickets, etc. But other words like wheelbarrow or beaver have little use for me in foreign languages.

I do think that if you are still at the "me love you long time" stage, that's beginner level and not intermediate. Nevertheless, if I can reach even that level in a few languages (like Japanese) before traveling, I would probably be super happy.


Obviously, somebody that says "me love you long time" is not anything but basic level. I was just showing it as an example in which the message was conveyed but it sounds terrible.

I'm impressed then. I don't know a lot of second-language Spanish speakers that know words like bisturí and castor from years ago; and I know a LOT of people that have studied Spanish. I've personally never used those words...except once at a museum when I saw a beaver. I'm waiting for the day when I can use words like "monaguillo", "sotana", "sastre" or "diapasón." Well, next time I'm in a Catholic church, probably. I've never used "diapasón" in a sentence with natives but I know what it is since I use it infrequently in the hospital. Did you live abroad a long time or have a LOT of Spanish speaking friends in California?

Edit: I don't know what buckwheat is, actually. But you are right about people learning what is important to them. I like studying about military strategy and weapons so I know a lot more terminology about guns that the vast majority of natives in Spanish. Stuff like "perdigón", "metralla" or "metralleta", obús, etc.

We all have weak spots in our languages and sometimes we can forget basic things. I remember at a language meetup last year I was talking with two masters students of Spanish (and they did speak very well) but they didn't know that "por" was used to say "times." "Diez por diez es cien". In my head, I was like, srsly? Really, dude?

Edited by casamata on 22 August 2013 at 9:50pm
1 person has voted this message useful



Expugnator
Hexaglot
Senior Member
Brazil
Joined 5164 days ago
3335 posts - 4349 votes 
Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento
Studies: Mandarin, Georgian, Russian

 
 Message 74 of 142
22 August 2013 at 9:44pm | IP Logged 
JC_Identity wrote:

I think that it is proper to bring some attention first to one evident implication of
what has been often stated by people who disagree with me. The mere fact here that you
can begin to study another language right after you just studied one indicates that
your reason has nothing to do with physical or mental exhaustion but rather with
boredom. Had you been physically or mentally exhausted, you would have not been able to
study anything. Now if boredom is the issue, I think it helps to ask yourself about
your approach.


I have to disagree specifically on this. When I can't take any more hanzi, when my mind
gets tired of associating sound and logographic symbol and deal with a different word
order, then I am tired of Chinese for that specific moment. Then when I've had enough
of an agglutinative language with some ergativity, loads of consonant clusters and
different words from international vocabulary formed from roots I don't master yet, I'm
really tired of Georgian. Then I move on to Norwegian and I can get most of the words,
but now I need to learn more obscure words I'm less likely to use often in order to
understand some texts, so I get tired of learning rarer words in Norwegian while I
still don't know important ones in Chinese or Georgian. So, now it's time for me to
take a break from textbooks and I start reading and watching videos. Yet I get even
more obscure words in French, but then 1 year ago the French words I was learning were
still not so obscure, even less so than today's Norwegian ones.

I don't think it is why I got 'bored' with Chinese that I decided not to study it for
that while. As a matter of fact, I can restart the cycle 5 hours later and that allows
me to keep the wheel running for 6 hours a day, when I'll have learned some Chinese,
some Norwegian, some Georgian, some French, some Papiamento and some Russian. Each of
them in a different stage, in a different way. Just enough from each of them. Right now
it's half past 6 pm and I'm really tired, I'm only going to watch 10 min of Georgian
films and 10 min of French, even though I think I'm a bit too tired for that. I got my
share of Chinese sentences and of individual hanzi and words, I don't think I can take
more than that. I got my share of Chinese video with English subtitles, while I tried
to process the alien (to me) grammar so as to make the subtitles useful; same with the
Chinese cartoon without subtitles, where I had to struggle even more.

I don't think I could get away with all other languages and learn 5x more hanzi, 5x
more sentences, watch 5x more series and cartoon in Chinese and study 5x more podcast
lessons and 5x more textbook lessons, which is all that I do for Chinese in a day. This
accounts for about 2 hours and is more than what many of "us, who can focus" can devote
to their focus. Yet I'm learning 5 more languages in a way that I enjoy and that is
being useful for me, since I'm seeing sufficient progress and I know that when I leave
the textbook stage it will be even better and more interesting to "study" my languages
with books I want to read and movies I want to watch. I don't think I'm 'bored' or
'lazy' or whatever fits when I decide not to continue with Chinese even though I have
more free time. Yet I'm far from being mentally exhausted after I'm done with the first
part of my Chinese studies, and the evidence of that is that I can come back to it
within the same day after I've taken some rest.

I go to the gym, and the way the exercises are planned I am supposed to exercise one
group till exhaustion. That exhaustion doesn't last all day long, though. Even though I
can't lift a bar after my third series of supine, I can still exercise legs. And even
though by the end of a series I couldn't hold and lift the bar any longer, I could go
back to supine only some minutes later and lift the bar again. I just don't do that
because I know that I'll have had all the supine exercising I need and I can exercise
many other groups in the meantime.
4 persons have voted this message useful



casamata
Senior Member
Joined 4260 days ago
237 posts - 377 votes 
Studies: Portuguese

 
 Message 75 of 142
22 August 2013 at 9:47pm | IP Logged 
Expugnator wrote:
JC_Identity wrote:

I think that it is proper to bring some attention first to one evident implication of
what has been often stated by people who disagree with me. The mere fact here that you
can begin to study another language right after you just studied one indicates that
your reason has nothing to do with physical or mental exhaustion but rather with
boredom. Had you been physically or mentally exhausted, you would have not been able to
study anything. Now if boredom is the issue, I think it helps to ask yourself about
your approach.


I have to disagree specifically on this. When I can't take any more hanzi, when my mind
gets tired of associating sound and logographic symbol and deal with a different word
order, then I am tired of Chinese for that specific moment. Then when I've had enough
of an agglutinative language with some ergativity, loads of consonant clusters and
different words from international vocabulary formed from roots I don't master yet, I'm
really tired of Georgian. Then I move on to Norwegian and I can get most of the words,
but now I need to learn more obscure words I'm less likely to use often in order to
understand some texts, so I get tired of learning rarer words in Norwegian while I
still don't know important ones in Chinese or Georgian. So, now it's time for me to
take a break from textbooks and I start reading and watching videos. Yet I get even
more obscure words in French, but then 1 year ago the French words I was learning were
still not so obscure, even less so than today's Norwegian ones.

I don't think it is why I got 'bored' with Chinese that I decided not to study it for
that while. As a matter of fact, I can restart the cycle 5 hours later and that allows
me to keep the wheel running for 6 hours a day, when I'll have learned some Chinese,
some Norwegian, some Georgian, some French, some Papiamento and some Russian. Each of
them in a different stage, in a different way. Just enough from each of them. Right now
it's half past 6 pm and I'm really tired, I'm only going to watch 10 min of Georgian
films and 10 min of French, even though I think I'm a bit too tired for that. I got my
share of Chinese sentences and of individual hanzi and words, I don't think I can take
more than that. I got my share of Chinese video with English subtitles, while I tried
to process the alien (to me) grammar so as to make the subtitles useful; same with the
Chinese cartoon without subtitles, where I had to struggle even more.

I don't think I could get away with all other languages and learn 5x more hanzi, 5x
more sentences, watch 5x more series and cartoon in Chinese and study 5x more podcast
lessons and 5x more textbook lessons, which is all that I do for Chinese in a day. This
accounts for about 2 hours and is more than what many of "us, who can focus" can devote
to their focus. Yet I'm learning 5 more languages in a way that I enjoy and that is
being useful for me, since I'm seeing sufficient progress and I know that when I leave
the textbook stage it will be even better and more interesting to "study" my languages
with books I want to read and movies I want to watch. I don't think I'm 'bored' or
'lazy' or whatever fits when I decide not to continue with Chinese even though I have
more free time. Yet I'm far from being mentally exhausted after I'm done with the first
part of my Chinese studies, and the evidence of that is that I can come back to it
within the same day after I've taken some rest.

I go to the gym, and the way the exercises are planned I am supposed to exercise one
group till exhaustion. That exhaustion doesn't last all day long, though. Even though I
can't lift a bar after my third series of supine, I can still exercise legs. And even
though by the end of a series I couldn't hold and lift the bar any longer, I could go
back to supine only some minutes later and lift the bar again. I just don't do that
because I know that I'll have had all the supine exercising I need and I can exercise
many other groups in the meantime.


I don't remember if it was a neurology course where I heard that you are supposed to change subjects every hour or so. But you could do that in the same language, right? Like instead of reading about one topic in your target language you just read about another one? Or if you are tired of reading, you can start listening, writing, or speaking?

Edit: exercise is different. The best long-distance runners in the world only train about 2-2.5 hours of actual exercise each day--they would break if they did more! (I'm not counting rest periods or time stretching or getting massages) But people DO study 8-10 hours a day...unfortunately! :(

Edited by casamata on 22 August 2013 at 9:54pm
1 person has voted this message useful



mike245
Triglot
Senior Member
Hong Kong
Joined 6970 days ago
303 posts - 408 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish, Cantonese
Studies: French, German, Mandarin, Khmer

 
 Message 76 of 142
22 August 2013 at 10:03pm | IP Logged 
casamata wrote:
I'm impressed then. I don't know a lot of second-language Spanish speakers that know words like bisturí and castor from years ago; and I know a LOT of people that have studied Spanish. I've personally never used those words...except once at a museum when I saw a beaver. I'm waiting for the day when I can use words like "monaguillo" or "diapasón." Well, next time I'm in a Catholic church, probably. Did you live abroad a long time or have a LOT of Spanish speaking friends in California?


I spent five weeks backpacking through Spain back in college, but otherwise, haven't lived abroad in a Spanish-speaking country. I think, however, if you watch enough television and listen to enough radio, these words will pop up. I also used to read a fair amount in Spanish. However, you stumped me with "monaguillo" and "diapasón." I've never heard or seen those words before and don't know what they mean. I guess that's why I'm not at "advanced fluency" in Spanish.
1 person has voted this message useful



ScottScheule
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
scheule.blogspot.com
Joined 5226 days ago
645 posts - 1176 votes 
Speaks: English*, Spanish
Studies: Latin, Hungarian, Biblical Hebrew, Old English, Russian, Swedish, German, Italian, French

 
 Message 77 of 142
22 August 2013 at 10:08pm | IP Logged 
I believe diapasón is a tuning fork, but I'm stumped by monaguillo, too.
1 person has voted this message useful



casamata
Senior Member
Joined 4260 days ago
237 posts - 377 votes 
Studies: Portuguese

 
 Message 78 of 142
22 August 2013 at 10:17pm | IP Logged 
ScottScheule wrote:
I believe diapasón is a tuning fork, but I'm stumped by monaguillo, too.


Yes, tuning fork. Of limited use in modern medicine but some folks still use Rinne's and Weber's tests for sound conduction in ear. Monaguillo means altar boy. I used to know another word but it's hard remembering all the synonyms of words when you rarely use them so I didn't pay much attention to it.

I'm just surprised that he hears words like scalpel and beaver on tv. I rarely hear that stuff and have talked a good amount of hours with natives. I will say that the word "sprinklers" apparently isn't used much in latin america because apparently they don't have much of those.

If you guys haven't tried it, you should get some "elote" or "tunas." Elote is kind of like a mix of corn and spices eaten in Mexico and tunas are the juicy fruit from cacti.
1 person has voted this message useful



casamata
Senior Member
Joined 4260 days ago
237 posts - 377 votes 
Studies: Portuguese

 
 Message 79 of 142
22 August 2013 at 10:19pm | IP Logged 
mike245 wrote:
casamata wrote:
I'm impressed then. I don't know a lot of second-language Spanish speakers that know words like bisturí and castor from years ago; and I know a LOT of people that have studied Spanish. I've personally never used those words...except once at a museum when I saw a beaver. I'm waiting for the day when I can use words like "monaguillo" or "diapasón." Well, next time I'm in a Catholic church, probably. Did you live abroad a long time or have a LOT of Spanish speaking friends in California?


I spent five weeks backpacking through Spain back in college, but otherwise, haven't lived abroad in a Spanish-speaking country. I think, however, if you watch enough television and listen to enough radio, these words will pop up. I also used to read a fair amount in Spanish. However, you stumped me with "monaguillo" and "diapasón." I've never heard or seen those words before and don't know what they mean. I guess that's why I'm not at "advanced fluency" in Spanish.


For five weeks that is impressive. Did you study it in college? You're making me feel bad because it was my major and love in college and I never learned words like beaver and scalpel back then! You must have had a lot of native friends?
1 person has voted this message useful



tarvos
Super Polyglot
Winner TAC 2012
Senior Member
China
likeapolyglot.wordpr
Joined 4705 days ago
5310 posts - 9399 votes 
Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans
Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish

 
 Message 80 of 142
22 August 2013 at 10:25pm | IP Logged 
casamata wrote:
tarvos wrote:
casamata wrote:
tarvos wrote:
I don't use
wheelbarrows or sledgehammers often, I
don't own any sprinklers, and I rarely
encounter beavers. These are all words I could infer from context as "oh, it's an
animal"
or "oh, it's that object" when someone uses it. I don't know the word in French for
"shoelace" off the top of my head, but it's not a word I use daily.

Butterfly is the only word out of those I'd use regularly, sleep aid I can see some
context for.


Yes, but those are all words that natives will know. And they aren't "weird" erudite
words that nobody knows. I have never used a sledgehammer and have only used a
wheelbarrow on a few occasions in my life. But I know what people are talking about
when they tell me about them. I like learning that stuff because I feel like a dummy
not knowing them and because I find learning the intricacies of a language fun.

Beavers, FYI, suck because they are carriers for Giardia, and people that go hiking and
drink the water from the stream get massive watery diarrhea.

Edit: shoelaces is a bad example for word knowledge in the first world because
everybody uses them and knows what they are. That is a word that most people, I
presume, would expect any intermediate or advanced learner to know.


I seriously have never encountered this word in any other language but Dutch/English.

And I know some pretty rare words...

Also, the language police will hunt you down if you don't know a word. True story!


Shoelace? Srsly? Well, the language police will only do so in Quebec. :)
Personally, I don't care if somebody is good or bad at languages, only if they sell a
product and misrepresent their level or if they give wrong information to others.

Edit: Lacet in French. So if somebody said "lacet" you wouldn't know what they were
talking about? "Do you guys sell lacets here?" (In French)


Est-ce que vous avez des trucs pour fermer mes chaussures?... j'ai juste oublié le
mot... eh bien, cela se dit lacet? Magnifique. C'est ça que je voudrais, j'en voudrais
deux, merci!

That's what I would do.

Works every time, and I don't have to think about how many words I know or don't know
because in the event I need to go shopping for shoelaces in France (or Belgium or
something, in which case I could prolly get away with Flemish in Brussels).

Is that orthodox? No, but it gets me my damn shoelaces.

Same thing with a beaver.

"Y a un animal là-bas, cela s'appelle comment? Ah ben ouais, c'est la mammifère là,
mais je connais pas le mot français, alors dis-moi...stp" etc.

You make shit up.

Edited by tarvos on 22 August 2013 at 10:28pm


6 persons have voted this message useful



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