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What ’easy’ language do you find hard? | ||
Tags: Difficulty | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4032 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 57 of 134 22 May 2014 at 3:25am | IP Logged | |||||
http://books.google.com/books?id=MC0PAAAAQAAJ&printsec=front cover#v=onepage&q&f=false Take a look at this, this is the Dorset dialect. It is possibly the last dialect to retain grammatical gender in English. Edited by Stolan on 22 May 2014 at 3:28am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Alphathon Groupie Scotland Joined 4180 days ago 60 posts - 104 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Scottish Gaelic | Message 58 of 134 22 May 2014 at 5:22am | IP Logged | |||||
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To those who have issues with the th sounds in English (or other languages like Icelandic), I feel like the mechanics of the two sounds are frequently not explained properly (if at all). There are some sounds that are legitimately difficult to produce (at least for those who are unfamiliar with them) as they need the mouth/tongue/throat/whatever to be in a position that is entirely alien. With th however, that's not the case, at least for those whose mother tongue includes f and/or v sounds (which could be universal for all I know - they're certainly not uncommon sounds); one just has to figure out how to produce them. Neither sound is intrinsically more or less difficult than f/v, as they are fairly similar in terms of mouth shape/position. The only difference is that the resonation is produced using the tongue rather than the bottom lip.
For voiced th (ð), make and hold a v sound and feel the position of your lips, tongue, teeth etc. You should feel that your bottom lip folds back slightly into a small gap between your teeth (but isn't held in tightly/bitten). Basically, to produce the ð sound, all you have to do is push your tongue through that gap by a few millimetres instead of having your bottom lip in there (again, don't bite your tongue; there should be a minute gap between your tongue and teeth for air to pass through). The same applies to þ, except it is unvoiced (so start with f as that is the unvoiced equivalent of v - the mouth position is the same). Regardless, in my opinion it is probably better to approximate ð and þ with v and f than, say z or t or d. The reason for this is that one can, over time, learn to pronounce ð and þ by slowly altering the position of one's mouth from v and f. With the other sounds, the mechanism for producing them is entirely different, so not only makes "falling back" more difficult, but also precludes a smooth transition to the "proper" sound.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
What exactly do you mean by that? Are you talking about English's lack of T-V distinction? If so, I feel the complete opposite (as a native English speaker). My only exposure to it is through German, but I feel it to be unnecessary to have to use different grammar/pronouns depending on one's addressee. As far as I'm concerned we have far too many ways in which to show subservience and formality as it is. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4290 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 59 of 134 22 May 2014 at 5:39am | IP Logged | |||||
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I would very much prefer to continue to use þou and ye as nominative and þee and you as
accusative, like basically almost every other Indo-European language. As a native speaker, using "you" to address both the Queen and my pet dog sounds quite weird. It would be better to say to a friend, "What willst thou do?" and a group, "Shall ye come with me to dinner?". The Romance languages for example have not only the T-V distinction, but different titles combined with various conjugations, i.e. using the Spanish vos and the Portuguese vós to address a single person, usually somewhat with a title, as well as using Vuestra Señoría or things like A Vossa Altíssima Beatifiquíssima Santíssima Excelentíssima Omnipotentíssima Majestade. Edited by 1e4e6 on 22 May 2014 at 7:24am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Penelope Diglot Senior Member Greece Joined 3869 days ago 110 posts - 155 votes Speaks: English, French Studies: Russian, Turkish, Modern Hebrew | Message 60 of 134 22 May 2014 at 7:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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Great conversation about Italian.
Now that I know all that about it, I like it even more! It's true that people are very relaxed with foreigners and they don't bite your head off for making a mistake. And they are always willing to talk. My attention was turned to the vernaholo fiorentino last year, and it was one of the most fun things I did in Italy, spotting the florentines! As for turkish, one objection: it is regular but I wouldn't call it easy. I can't compare it to English, because I started learning English years ago and I have forgotten the effort it took. I don't see why we should compare languages at all in terms of difficulty. Maybe different people find different languages easy, so there is no real way to jugde. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Hungringo Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 3988 days ago 168 posts - 329 votes Speaks: Hungarian*, English, Spanish Studies: French | Message 61 of 134 22 May 2014 at 10:44am | IP Logged | |||||
I have pointed out a few issues in my previous posts above. People from Northern Europe speak good English for many reasons that mutually support and complement each other. There is a lexical similarity between English and Scandinavian languages, TV shows are not dubbed, there is a shared Nordic-Protestant culture and perhaps classroom instruction is also better. In Hungary (but I suppose most Eastern and Southern European countries are similar in this respect) all or at least some of the above mentioned factors are missing. There is no lexical similarity, TV shows are dubbed, culture is different and possibly classrom instruction is less efficient. I graduated from secondary school without any exposure to or formal education in English. Most Hungarian kids have 2-3 English lessons a week (provided they have not opted for German in the first place) but have no exposure whatsoever to the language outside the school. The public is not receptive to TV programmes shown in the original language, even in the cinema it is difficult to find a non-dubbed showing. Yes, on the radio you can listen to English music, but it is basically just background noise, and most people don't understand a single word of the songs. Computer games and softwares are also translated into Hungarian, otherwise people wouldn't buy them. And then there are the linguistic factors I've touched in my posts. English pronunciation is a nightmare and the language is full of sounds we cannot pronounce properly, stress-timing is difficult to grasp for speakers of syllable-timed languages, and English spelling is so messy that someone whose mother tongue has a phonemic writing system could cry in pain. English grammar is not so easy at all, the lack of noun cases is compensated for by phrasal verbs and idioms. Of course, idioms are part of every language, but they are particularly prevalent in English. English dialects are also problematic for learners. In spite of having spent half of my adult life in England, each time my phone rings I get the jitters and start wondering if I am going to understand the caller or not. By contrast, after 3 months of study I was a regular guest in a Spanish-speaking phone-in radio talk show. Edited by Hungringo on 22 May 2014 at 2:57pm 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Medulin Tetraglot Senior Member Croatia Joined 4668 days ago 1199 posts - 2192 votes Speaks: Croatian*, English, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Norwegian, Hindi, Nepali | Message 62 of 134 22 May 2014 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | |||||
English has a limited set of honorifics as well, for example an author referring to himself/herself as ''yours truly'' instead of I/me/myself, in the middle of the text: ''This forum is full of ideas that many people are exploring - including yours truly.'' Edited by Medulin on 22 May 2014 at 2:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Stolan Senior Member United States Joined 4032 days ago 274 posts - 368 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Thai, Lowland Scots Studies: Arabic (classical), Cantonese | Message 63 of 134 22 May 2014 at 6:12pm | IP Logged | |||||
http://www.economist.com/node/15108609 The "linguist" who wrote the said article is the kind I absolutelty want to slap, the smug tone and complete pro whorfianism and lack of belief in variability. http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=34594&PN=11&TPN=1 This forum used to have crud that English is easy more often. The post above is not the main focus but the replies to it. I seriously want to slap everyone that replied to the thread above, linguistics is in a terrible state because of the complete lack of understanding among European speakers. Chances are, if they think English is the easiest, they have no clue what perceived difficulty is or how languages evolve over time, nor do they have a single clue that maybe it is possible for an uninflecting language to still have grammar or that languages vary across the world. Difficulty can be in one's head, like how some claim they gave up Mandarin because it was too difficult, you would have to be a half wit to think Mandarin is a complicated language, it is the simplest dialect of Chinese there is outside of Dungan and foreign influenced varieties, and millions learn it as a lingua franca in China. There is nothing about it that makes it one of the most unique languages in the world, it is simplified as hell! Only 4 tones, but no consonant clusters at all and a tiny vowel inventory with barely any phonological processes by means of tonality or morphology! Likewise, they think English is an empty language and stroll through it while they wouldn't bother learning inflected languages the same way. Edited by Stolan on 22 May 2014 at 8:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4290 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 64 of 134 23 May 2014 at 3:10am | IP Logged | |||||
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True, but Spanish and Portuguese share not only a high relation between their
languages, but are both traditionally majority Catholic nations, which I am unsure even matters in terms of ease of learning the language of the other, but I do not meet many who learn the other to a high level. Perhaps the fact that Scandinavians are taught English from age to 5 to 15 and beyond, that helps, but I think that if one is forced to learn any language for at least ten years beginning from primary school, the students would generally master the language. Also, yes English shares some lexical similarities with the Scandinavian languages, but so vice versa. However, I do not seem to feel any extreme ease to learn Swedish nor Danish to be so easy like doing arithmetic in my head. Also, I am not Protestant, but I am unsure what the relation is to learning the languages with ease. Nevertheless, I have been told various times that English was the easiest language in the world because it was simplified like an Esperanto, except that English was not a constructed language, but somehow lost all of its features more than a fisherman's stew that lost all of its seafood and was left with but pure broth. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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