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A continuation of the endless I/O talk | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tpark Tetraglot Pro Member Canada Joined 6841 days ago 118 posts - 127 votes  Speaks: English*, German, Dutch, French Personal Language Map | Message 106 of 126 30 November 2008 at 9:50pm | IP Logged | ||
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It is possible to learn a language by hearing and using it on a regular basis, but knowing the grammatical structure of a language helps immensely when learning another language as an adult. The use of prepositions and idiomatic expressions can be learned from reading and listening to native speakers. Once a reasonable level of competence has been reached, much can be learned from sources such as the radio and television, at least for learning the target language. For less advanced learners, I think that it is important to have corrective feedback when producing output, otherwise mistakes will become fossilized. When a child says "He give me the ball" the parent may say something like "He gives me the ball" or "He gave me he ball" thus correcting the verb and demonstrating correct usage of that verb. It is also helpful to do specific listening exercises in order to be able to differentiate between sounds in the second language. As an example, English language speakers initially have difficulty hearing the difference between dessus and dessous. This is because /y/ isn't used in the English language so it is confused with /u/.
As others in the thread have noted, native English speakers do make mistakes. Many of these errors are related to word usage rather than grammatical errors. Confusing "effect" with "affect" is one example that comes to mind. Individuals who have another first language may say things like "He is very gentle" about someone who is nice. gentil != gentle. Different language methods teach different things, so I think it's worthwhile to examine different methods. Michel Thomas teaches language structure, things learned from Pimsleur are retained, Assimil teaches vocabulary and idiomatic expressions. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6470 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 107 of 126 01 December 2008 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | ||
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Hi tapark,
I agree. Grammar and specific listening exercises can be very useful, but we have a problem. A lot of people can not put up with grammar and listening drills. If those approaches are unavoidable, because without them students get fossilized, what do you recommend for those people? What's worse? -Avoiding grammar or giving up your target language? -Avoiding specific listening exercises or giving up your target language? -Making fossilized mistakes or giving up your target language? :-) Edited by slucido on 01 December 2008 at 1:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5806 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 108 of 126 01 December 2008 at 1:34pm | IP Logged | ||
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The problem with traditional drills is that they compartmentalise language: one set of drills focuses on one feature. These can be done mechanically, without understanding the sentence.
For example if the drill is: The car is green The car is red The apple is red The apple is green you don't really have to understand the meaning of "the" or "is" -- if you hold the pattern "the X is Y" in your head then you can just fill the blank without thinking about it. Boredom is a sign that something is not mentally stimulating. Learning is a process of mental stimulation, so something that makes you bored can't be teaching you anything. Some people do manage to learn despite these boring drills, so in some way they must be mentally stimulating themselves. That doesn't mean that the technique is good/reinforcing for some people and not others, it's that some people are capable of changing the nature of the task. If we devise a similar task that is inherently mentally stimulating, this will work for those who can stimulate themselves as well as those who can't. Wen you integrate and mix the grammar points being tested, consecutive examples are made more different. Once there is a moderate distance, the student can't do it automatically -- he has to understand every word he is saying in order to say it. Mechanical repetition is rote learning, and almost every learner has experienced being able to do a rote drill correctly but continuing to make errors when trying to put the technique into real use. One of the most powerful parts of Michel Thomas's teaching technique was the connection and interleaving of grammar points throughout the course -- that was repetition, but it was not rote learning: everything was meaningful. Edited by Cainntear on 01 December 2008 at 1:42pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6242 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 109 of 126 01 December 2008 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | ||
I recommend shutting up. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Leopejo Bilingual Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5904 days ago 675 posts - 724 votes Speaks: Italian*, Finnish*, English Studies: French, Russian | Message 110 of 126 01 December 2008 at 3:20pm | IP Logged | ||
Is that a good method to learn languages? Does it have INTENSITY and TIME? ;-) 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6242 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes Studies: German | Message 111 of 126 01 December 2008 at 3:40pm | IP Logged | ||
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Shut up and listen. Yes, it's a good way to begin language learning.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6470 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 112 of 126 01 December 2008 at 4:29pm | IP Logged | ||
I prefer to shut up in my own language. The less we talk, the less we screw up :O) 1 person has voted this message useful |
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