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A continuation of the endless I/O talk | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| reineke Senior Member United States https://learnalangua Joined 6242 days ago 851 posts - 1008 votes  Studies: German | Message 25 of 126 27 November 2008 at 7:00am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
The right “method” will produce a desired reaction – keep people from quitting by fooling them into believing in its special intrinsic qualities. You are consequently placing equal value on the language material that is presented through different methods even though different approaches heavily influence and proscribe input/output. Marketing ploys and similar devices cannot work if people don’t believe in them. A method with real intrinsic value would also fail. If persuaded by your argument the student would either abandon or seek exclusively pleasurable activities. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| DaraghM Diglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 5946 days ago 1947 posts - 2923 votes Speaks: English*, Spanish Studies: French, Russian, Hungarian | Message 26 of 126 27 November 2008 at 7:04am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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I'm confused. Is slucido saying that whatever method you use, and it works, is his method ? Isn't that like going into a betting shop and saying, "I'd like to put my money on the winning horse" ?
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| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5806 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 27 of 126 27 November 2008 at 8:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
So it doesn't matter whether it's correct behaviour or not, in your opinion...? Re: "method"
This is true. But learning is genuinely interesting and stimulating. A good course, therefore, isn't boring to the vast majority of the target audience. A bad course is only interesting to a minority.
But the problem is that writing is not language. You do not have the luxury of speaking slowly and reviewing what you say. Writing develops bad habits, in the sense that the strategies of planning and reviewing cannot be transferred to spoken language. Writing slowly and reviewing are not spontaneous and fluency is all about spontaneously producing language.
Yes, but the mistakes have been fossilised by repetition. You keep saying them, so they stick. They need to be consciously fixed, using an appropriately tuned method.
As I said, paper presents the opportunity to adopt strategies that do not and cannot work in spoken language. Strategies that work for spoken language, however, can be transferred to written language, and additional strategies can be adopted to refine the process.
Do you say the same about medecine? I'd take the doctor's advice over my "feelings" if I got a life-threatening disease. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| JohnnyR Groupie United Kingdom how-to-learn-any-lan Joined 5640 days ago 47 posts - 47 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Portuguese, Japanese | Message 28 of 126 27 November 2008 at 9:19am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
hahaha I think he's just trying to get across that if you dont quit then youre doing 'his method', but yes thats pretty much the same thing as its not really a method its just not giving up. If you never give up you always complete your task and if you do give up then you're not doign his method which means his method has a 100% success rate and is the best in the world as it will always get you to native fluency. Nobody else has a method which can do that which means slucido is some sort of a genius. At least...thats how i see him. Edited by JohnnyR on 27 November 2008 at 9:25am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6470 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 30 of 126 27 November 2008 at 11:14am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
1-The right method will be reinforcing for this person and will produce the desire reactión and MAYBE this person will believe his method has intrinsic qualities...and will argue against me...Is it possible? Yes it is. 2-If your method lack input or output, your method is wrong, but it doesn't matter because in the long run you have only the target language and you. If this method keep your motivation enough, you will arrive at the second and more important step.
Why? Reinforcing does NO necessarily mean "pleasure". 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 5806 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 31 of 126 27 November 2008 at 12:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Paraphrasing: All methods are good. Except some are bad. But it doesn't matter if it's bad, because you'll learn the language anyway. In effect, you are saying that even with a method that teaches you nothing, you will still learn the language. Logically, your implication is that all methods are worthless, because they don't assist you in learning the language. Following from this, it seems illogical that you advise following any method at all. The logical conclusion (based on your dubious premises) is that methods are valueless, and that you should simply expose yourself to the language. But what would you do with the language you observed? If you are not completely passive, you are following a method. If you are completely passive, you are following a method. This is a total paradox.
Because you said: It doesn't matter what method you use, as long as you don't give up. If it doesn't matter which method you use, then why should I do one that's hard work? So we'll only do the "fun" stuff, logically. EDIT: Plus, you have committed another fatally simple error: the negative particle in English is "not", not "no". This is one of the simplest fundamental points of English, taught in some of the earliest stages of learning, so I'm absolutely positive that you will have been exposed to this in massive amounts of input, but this has not been translated to output. The reason you do this is because: 1) "not" is similar to the Spanish "no" 2) "not" and "no" in English both translate to the Spanish "no" A good method would identify this as one of the most common errors for Spanish speakers of English and make sure that this was properly learnt. Anyone who knows a lot of Spanish people will be well aware that this problem does not solve itself with time and needs considerable conscious effort. (On the part of the teacher.) Edited by Cainntear on 27 November 2008 at 12:53pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| slucido Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Spain https://goo.gl/126Yv Joined 6470 days ago 1296 posts - 1781 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Spanish*, Catalan* Studies: English | Message 32 of 126 27 November 2008 at 1:11pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Works if you have input, output and you do NOT give up.
Metaphorically speaking, yes. However this is much easier. Our winning horse is whatever method with input output and REINFORCING. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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