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English as the universal language | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Mithridates Newbie Korea, South pagef30.com Joined 5487 days ago 21 posts - 36 votes | Message 65 of 206 05 November 2009 at 3:45am | IP Logged | ||
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So-called neutrality in languages is overrated, and almost always seems to be based on vocabulary alone. I find languages like Persian to be more "neutral" for an English speaker than something like German though, because the grammar is that much easier for an English speaker to get used to than German with genders and cases that must be used properly. Constructed languages are the same - the classic definition of neutrality is not a language that has a bit of vocabulary from everywhere, but simply a language where everyone is using it as an L2. I actually find that familiarity with vocabulary can often make a language a bit tricky because spelling and usage will be a tiny bit different than something you're used to, while those without a western European language as an L1 have the benefit of approaching it from a clean slate.
In any case, if anyone decides to make a good constructed language based on Turkic or Finno-Ugric languages and it seems to be getting a lot of play in the media then I'll support that too. Whatever works. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Rikyu-san Diglot Senior Member Denmark Joined 5339 days ago 213 posts - 413 votes  Speaks: Danish*, English Studies: German, French | Message 66 of 206 05 November 2009 at 9:33am | IP Logged | ||
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At the end of the day, no language is better than its speakers. Speaking English in an unjust society is a different experience from speaking English in a more just and fair society.
We need strengths of character to create a more fair society, and we need to understand our own culture in order to give our character strengths the depth of meaning that is necessary to understand and make sense of our experience and make decisions that lead to the Good Life. As a Dane, this would mean that I should study my own Vedic and Old Norse heritage, among other things, and understand the "why" of what we have been doing for ages. There is a lot to be gained from this. If you follow this suggestion, find the strengths in your own culture. Our finest moments are undying treasures. The current cultural climate in the West, broadly speaking, is heading towards the lower end of the spectrum, not higher levels of education and character development. Mass media, consumer culture... care for a workout on the hedonic treadmill, anyone? Unfortunately, English serves as the medium by which this is happening. To reverse this downward spiralling trend, people who communicate in English need to change the place inside themselves from where they are communicating. A healthy balance between enjoying life in the moment and striving towards realizing deeper values in the future can only be done with a certain healthy dose of strengths of character, not solely by hedonic milling around. Edited by Rikyu-san on 05 November 2009 at 9:38am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5332 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 67 of 206 05 November 2009 at 10:14am | IP Logged | ||
Well, that is why I don't like universal or global languages in the first place. I don't think however that English is really threatening the Swedish language, what is happening and will continue to happen is that American "culture" will go on devastating real culture everywhere. Not that there is much left in a place like Sweden. For every person playing folk violin there are a hundred kids dreaming of becoming the next Justin Timberlake, and ten thousand people that just listen to that rubbish. This has nothing to do with the English language really, and it's not the English language that will eradicate Swedish culture, it's sheer mathematics. America is 40 times larger than Sweden, and by being able to do away with any vestiges of culture they can produce lowest common denominator material that appeals to everyone everywhere. We still haven't fully mastered that art over here. The reason Esperanto is not a threat is that it will never be larger than it is now. After over a hundred years, it still has less speakers than Icelandic. I especially like this wikipedia quote: "Assuming that this figure is accurate, that means that about 0.03% of the world's population speaks the language. This falls short of Zamenhof's goal of a universal language, but it represents a level of popularity unmatched by any other constructed language." I still don't see why a world language should be culturally neutral or exactly what that would mean. As it is now, the few people that have heard of Esperanto surely connect it with left-wing save-the-world student-hippies? How is that neutral? For a language to conquer the world it has to be anything but neutral. English succeeds precisely because it is identified with American "culture" and "civilisation" - Hollywood, Wall Street, Britney Spears, Hamburgers and most of all the national idols, Money and success. But is it really true that urban Swedes enroll their children in English speaking schools? I didn't know. It sounds scary. I know it is common in Asia, but I never thought it would happen here. It would make more sense to study Norwegian, Norway is much richer than America. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6514 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 68 of 206 05 November 2009 at 11:16am | IP Logged | ||
I have not visited Jamaica, but several other Caribbean islands and places like Singapore, the Phillipines, India, Australia, South Africa, Scotland and New York City. What happens is that the local populations may develop specific dialects, but at the same time they generally are able to speak a more 'standardized' English to foreigners. The big difference between the time where (for instance) Vulgar Latin diverged into the Romance languages is that films, TV programs and music in slightly diverging, but fully intercomprehensible variants of English now are used all over the planet and they exert a strongly levelling influence. So while it is true that English eventually may split up in a number of incomprehensible offspring languages, all of these will still exist as mere variants under an umbrella composed of those ENglisshes that are consumed through the mass media. It does take some amount of irrational nationalistic atavism to fight for the use of national languages under this Anglophone onslaught, and in small language communities with intense international connections there will be people who find it more rational (or alluring) to drop all resistance and love your international super language. It has happened before - Low German essentially died when Luther published the Bible in some-where-in-the-middle High German. And now it is either ignored or seen as something spoken by elderly people living in isolated villages. Edited by Iversen on 05 November 2009 at 11:21am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5332 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 69 of 206 05 November 2009 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | ||
It may perhaps be alluring to succumb to English, but why would it be irrational to fight for your own language? If you like Swedish, it's certainly natural to try to save it. Much more natural than giving way to English. What did you think here? Edited by Gusutafu on 05 November 2009 at 3:09pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6514 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 70 of 206 05 November 2009 at 6:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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What I thought? I thought for instance at one of my collegues who in all earnest said that it was more practical if we just dropped Danish and became truly international and global and all that, speaking English. Films, documentaries and popular music are already mostly in English, some companies have English as their common languages, some academic studies are conducted in English and some naive people have the idea that if there are 100 Danes and one foreigner in a room then we all should speak English.
So the it isn't too farfetched that these people - who haven't a shred of reverence for their accidental country and language - would drop the Danish language at dthe drop of a hat. As you may infer from my post above I don't share their opinions. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| mick33 Senior Member United States Joined 5735 days ago 1335 posts - 1632 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Finnish Studies: Thai, Polish, Afrikaans, Hindi, Hungarian, Italian, Spanish, Swedish | Message 72 of 206 05 November 2009 at 9:52pm | IP Logged | ||
3 persons have voted this message useful |
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