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Swedish, Norweg., Danish, Finnish - HELP! | ||
 Language Learning Forum : Skandinavisk & Nordisk |  | |
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5330 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes  Speaks: Swedish* | Message 25 of 52 21 December 2009 at 7:24pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
1. "Passa" with or without "för" are similar, but neither means "it's ok for X to Y". You should instead say "X får Y", "X kan Y" (the latter can also mean "X is able to Y", depending on context) or "det är tillåtet för X att Y". In all cases, Y should be in the infinitive. 2a. Yes, Finns do usually fail to pronounce the various SH-sounds that are lacking in Finnish. The way to spot a Finn however is usually prosody, the melody of speech, which is often completely different from broadcast Swedish. However, the accent of Finns speaking Swedish is quite similar (prosody wise) to the sound of the (normal) Finnish dialect of Swedish. Since this dialect is easily one of the most beautiful sounding Scandinavian dialects, I think you should try to mimic that, rather than Stockholm Swedish, which is horrible. To be sure, there are nice dialects in Sweden too, but it will be much harder for you to copy them. 2b. Like Jeff mentioned, before certain consonants the r may influence the sound of the following consonant. For example, "barn" is actually pronounced almost like a fused RN (like a very thick n) rather than two separate sounds. In "fors" (and all other rs combinations, there is no r at all, it is simply pronounced [fosj]. HOWEVER, none of this applies to Finland-Swedish (and some other dialects), so you can happily ignore it! Edited by Gusutafu on 21 December 2009 at 7:24pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| oz-hestekræfte Senior Member Australia Joined 5487 days ago 103 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Danish | Message 26 of 52 13 January 2010 at 6:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Having doubts where Danish seems to have two words for the same thing.
Før & Inden. My dictionary tells me: "Inden" is an adv/prep. Where as "før" is an adv/prep/conj It also gives several examples such as: "dagen inden" and "ugen før" / "inden længe" and "før nu" So by looking at those examples I would assume that they are both completely interchangable with one another as both adverbs and prepositions. Is this correct? Would my speech sound wierd if I only ever used the word "før" and never "inden?" I'm also curious as to whether "inden" is ever used by natives as a conjunction. The same with "tit" and "ofte". Are these 100% interchangable? While I think of it theres another thing that I can't seem to figure out, and that is the correct or most common way of saying "sometimes" I have seen and used "undertiden." My dictionay offers "somme tider" and "til tider." And I have heard "nogle gang" used in movies, even though it's not in my dictionary. Any help greatly appreciated. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6512 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 52 13 January 2010 at 7:53am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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{Quote= oz-hestekræfte]
Having doubts where Danish seems to have two words for the same thing. Før & Inden. [/QUOTE] They are close to being the same thing, but "inden" has a role with time limits which "før" doesn't share, being more related to points in time: compare "Du skal have betalt inden tre dage" (... within three days) vs "Han havde ikke betalt før rykkeren kom" (before the dun came) "Han havde ikke betalt inden rykkeren kom" (same thing, but 'før' is better here) {Quote= oz-hestekræfte] The same with "tit" and "ofte". Are these 100% interchangable? [/QUOTE] There are more or less the same thing, and you can even say "tit og ofte" 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| oz-hestekræfte Senior Member Australia Joined 5487 days ago 103 posts - 117 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Danish | Message 28 of 52 13 January 2010 at 10:29am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
Thanks Iversen. That also helps clear up how "indenfor" means "inside". On a side note: I had to look up "rykker" in the dictionary because I didn't understand the translation "dun" The Danish to English half of the dictionary gave me "reminder" which I understood. This is what we in Australia call it anyway. I reverse checked it and the Danish to English dictionary did gave the translation "dun", which I have not once in my life heard. Strange.
"Tit og ofte" har jeg faktisk set et par gang før. Senest i en julegave fra min kusine fra Danmark. En HC Andersen Bog. "Eventyr Anden Samling" ------ I have actually recently seen "tit og ofte" used before. Seeing it recently in a Hans Christian Andersen fairytale, is what reminded me to ask the difference between the 2 words.
Edited by oz-hestekræfte on 13 January 2010 at 10:30am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| DaisyMaisy Senior Member United States Joined 5189 days ago 115 posts - 178 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Spanish Studies: Swedish, Finnish | Message 29 of 52 23 April 2010 at 4:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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Hi all :)
May I ask a question that may be more cultural than language related? (though how does one really separate the two, really...that's a different topic I suppose!) My family story is that my mother's paternal grandparents were Swedish. I know they spoke Swedish, and I even have a beautiful old copy of their marriage certificate which is in Swedish as far as I can tell. It says, among other things, "Det heliga aktenskapet". They actually immigrated to the US separately, about 1900, and married in a small town on the Oregon coast in 1905. My grandfather, born in the US, spoke only Swedish until he was old enough to go to school, then learned English and sadly lost his Swedish. Anyway, I digress.....we found the records of my great grandparents' travel on the ships across from Europe, and they were both from Finland. My great grandfather, specifically, from Kokkola, Finland. Now I know there are Swedish speakers in Finland, and that both languages are considered languages of Finland. I find it curious though, that my great grandparents always said they were Swedish. Maybe I'm over simplifying, and showing my ignorance of Scandinavian history, but I would say that they were Finnish, and happened to be Swedish speakers. Is this a common thing amongst the Swedish speaking Finns? Do folks tend to identify more by language than by the actual country they are from? I truly hope this doesn't turn into a political issue - I'm just genuinely curious! I love both languages - Swedish and Finnish - and am slowly learning a bit of both. My goal is to study them both intensively someday. Someday I am going to visit Scandinavia. Such a beautiful place! (I credit my Scandinavian genes with my love of cold winters - which has forever been an unrequited love, having grown up in California!) Sorry for the long story! :) Kiitos and tack! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| Emme Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5156 days ago 980 posts - 1594 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German Studies: Russian, Swedish, French | Message 30 of 52 24 April 2010 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
I hope this doesn’t turn into a political issue either. I don’t want to oversimplify a complex question, and yet I’m aware that what I’m about to write is going to barely scratch the surface of the phenomenon of national identity—a topic so huge it would probably take a dissertation to tackle properly. Anyway, I believe European and American sensibilities on this topic are quite different. In America most of the population have immigrated from different countries. Every group of immigrants has a different background (a different language, a different religion, different traditions, in other words a different culture). The only thing all these people have in common is America itself—its land, its myth and the culture that they all contribute to create. So it seems fairly natural that Americans would feel a strong attachment to the country itself as the paradigm of their identity. In Europe the situation is somewhat different: culture (and language) is what gives people a sense of belonging. Many states have come into existence with the specific purpose of uniting people with the same culture/language and many conflicts have broken out because the borders of states didn’t overlap with the exact distribution of the populations sharing the same culture. Being Italian I can bring as an example what happened in my country: in the 19th and early 20th century the main impulse in Italian history was towards the unification of those people who felt to be Italian and yet were living in many different little states. The other side of the medal is what happened in the Balkans in the ‘90s. An important factor in the turmoil and the wars that spread there was the fact that in the same country there were cohabiting people with different languages, religions, traditions and who felt they belonged to a different people (here used with roughly the same meaning of ‘nationality’) than their neighbours. I don’t know enough about Sweden and Finland to discuss specifically about your ancestors, but I can give you an example that may help you understand how the linguistic factor is ingrained in European people’s sense of identity. Even now, there’s a German-speaking minority in Italy (in the region of South Tirol). For them it is natural to feel they are first of all Tiroler/Austrian who only happen to live in Italy and not the other way around (Italians who happen to speak German) and honestly I wouldn’t expect it to be otherwise. I hope you can now start to understand why your great grandparents would feel Swedish even if they lived in Finland. I hope I haven’t offended anyone with this post (if that was the case, I apologise: it was unintentional). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5262 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 31 of 52 25 April 2010 at 12:13am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
An interesting question. Do we have any finlandssvenskar on this forum who could enlighten us? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish- speaking_Finns Edited by tractor on 25 April 2010 at 12:50am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||
| bela_lugosi Hexaglot Senior Member Finland Joined 6263 days ago 272 posts - 376 votes Speaks: English, Finnish*, Italian, Spanish, German, Swedish Studies: Russian, Estonian, Sámi, Latin | Message 32 of 52 25 April 2010 at 1:06am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||
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I'm not a Finlandssvensk, so I wouldn't know for sure, but I've always had this impression that our Swedish-speaking minority identifies itself as Finnish, both ethnically and culturally speaking. The only relevant exception to this general rule are probably the inhabitants of the Aland islands between Finland and Sweden. I have been there and I can tell you that they are definitely Swedes who just happen to live on a few islands that just happen to be Finnish territory for political reasons. My Swedish-speaking friend often talks about how she feels 100% Finnish. She lives near Helsinki, so I guess she represents the vast majority of the Swedish-speaking population on mainland.
I hope this answer will help shed light on the issue. An interesting topic, indeed. Edited by bela_lugosi on 25 April 2010 at 1:08am 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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