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Is Polish really that hard? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Cabaire Senior Member Germany Joined 5393 days ago 725 posts - 1352 votes  | Message 81 of 125 01 February 2011 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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a kind of assimilation, which comes often in many slavic languages
Yes, it is an area of tension in the rules to write, how far assimilations are shown in writing. For example, after the October revolution it was decided to show the assimilation which affects the prefixes без- and из-. Formerly following the morphological principle you wrote безплатный or изтечь, now you have бесплатный and истечь. But you still write обшить and not *опшить; an inconsistency, I think. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| slavonica Triglot Newbie Germany Joined 4840 days ago 10 posts - 12 votes Speaks: Polish*, German, English Studies: Russian, Czech | Message 82 of 125 02 February 2011 at 12:07am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Sorry, I was mistaken, I thought you meant the way people speak. I haven't used Egnlish for a very long time, maybe that's why I was confused.
I dont't wanna argue if it's right or wrong to use the special characters - in SMS and mails I don't do it, as many don't. The other thing is with ortography. If someone writes "ruwniesz" instead of "również" or "poszłem" instead of "poszedłem", it's just because he can't do it right - not cause he thinks it's cool. I'm sure you know polish ortography isn't easy and there's many people - polish people - who have never learned it. It's sad, but that's the way it is. It ain't annoying, that they write it wrong - annoying is, that they never really leraned their mother tongue :( 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Derian Triglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5102 days ago 227 posts - 464 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Czech, French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 83 of 125 03 February 2011 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
With all due respect to Huliganov, his Polish is as far from flawless as my German. Huliganov is a member on the forum, and he states his Polish is "Native-like", which is nonsense. His vocabulary is very impressive (well, it's awesome), but he makes grammatical mistakes in every sentence, doesn't pronounce words correctly (especially the soft/hard consonant distinction: ś/sz, ć/cz, ź/ż etc., although in general his pronounciation is quite good) and his choice of words is also often hit and miss.
Advanced, but not flawless or native-like by any means.
'Ruwniesz' is obviously an incorrect spelling of 'również', and that's ortography indeed. But, 'poszłem' vs. 'poszedłem' is not an issue of ortopraphy, as both here are spelled correctly. They are two different word forms, thus it's a matter of grammar. '(Po)szłem' is commonly deemed ungrammatical (with the only "real" argument for that being: "Because it sounds uneducated"), which I don't even agree with (and many scholars don't either). I always use '(po)szłem' (!). [Perfective/imperfective, masculine, past form of 'iść'=to go] This is the result of a natural language evolution process called paradigm allignment: the feminine form is 'poszłam' (which two centuries ago was 'poszedłam'!), and the cumbersome masculine form "poszedłem" steadily undergoes the transition to become 'poszlem' - which is a corresponding, shorter, more convenient to pronounce form of the verb - to be fully consistent with the whole paradigm. Unfortunately, the real uneducated people and arrogant snobs, who want to sound wise and cool, have been stigmatising 'poszlem' because they've heard from some old farts that it's wrong. Edited by Derian on 03 February 2011 at 4:28pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6950 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 85 of 125 03 February 2011 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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As a foreigner who has been learning Polish, I've learned to say things such as "poszedłem" or "wpół do siedmej". Basically Polish is still developing. Perhaps in time the understood or "correct" form of these will be "poszłem" (on analogy of "poszłam") or "w pół do" as some native-speakers prefer or even insist for one reason or another.
However until the forms change sufficiently or at least become accepted at large by the relevant speech community/target audience, things like "poszłem" or "w pół do siedmej" will be marked as "wrong" and likely to generate a sufficiently negative response from the target audience. That's just the way it is. This doesn't mean however that in the background it's common and even expected for people to talk about WHY things are the way they are. The last two posts here remind me of people who deride the perceived "Americanisms" of "y'all" as a plural "you" or "in back of" (on the analogy of "in front of") as a substitute for "behind". No matter how "natural" (whatever that means) these forms are using descriptive linguistics, the truth is that "y'all" and "in back of" are often marked as uneducated by non-Americans (possible for non-linguistic reasons) and are likely to generate a less-than-positive impression for ESL students who assimilate these forms and then use them on target audiences who view them negatively. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Derian Triglot Senior Member PolandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5102 days ago 227 posts - 464 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, German Studies: Spanish, Russian, Czech, French, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 86 of 125 04 February 2011 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Can we also say my Japanese is advanced, even though it's basic, because I have something interesting to say? You completely miss the point here. Focus, please :) If someone makes untrue claims then we can't accept them only because that person "has something interesting to say". That's absurd. I'm evaluating his Polish (and nothing else) in the light of his own and others' claims.
Do you say 'thinked', because you say 'think'? Do you say 'idzieliśmy', because you say 'idziemy', and not 'szlimy'? Like I said, the feminine form used to be "szedła" as well. It isn't anymore. Edited by Derian on 04 February 2011 at 1:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| slavonica Triglot Newbie Germany Joined 4840 days ago 10 posts - 12 votes Speaks: Polish*, German, English Studies: Russian, Czech | Message 88 of 125 04 February 2011 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Derian:
Well, it's a very comfortable way of thinking, especially, when you don't want to speak your own way correctly... "Poszłem" NEVER was a correct form and you can tell me everything - but it's "poszedłem", which is the right form and it doesn't matter, how people spoke centuries ago, because the language today is just different, like someone already said, it develops. Anyway, I've never heard, that "poszłem" would be anytime right "Ruwniesz" (spoke) isn't any mistake, because it's just the way you pronounce it. It'a kind of assimilation, which comes also in the beginning of the word (you don't say "[wszystko]", but "[fszystko]" and in the middle. Written - of course, these are mistakes. And I took those 2 examples together not because I can't different ortography from grammatic, but just to show 2 examples of an ucorrectly use of the Polish language, done by many Polish people. You don't have to be angry just because other people have something else to say. But it's a little bit annoying that you claim something, that isn't right and don't want to accept any other point of view. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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