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Level D1 on the CEFR | ||
Tags: Native Fluency | CEFR Language Levels | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5080 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes  Studies: Italian | Message 41 of 50 25 April 2011 at 10:52am | IP Logged | |||||
I guess it's important to aim for a good (or, at least, reasonably good) accent and intonation in our target languages. But actually it has zero relevance as regards reading comprehension... 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5883 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 42 of 50 25 April 2011 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Most tests for foreign language proficiency encompass more than just reading comprehension. This thread is aimed at finding material that goes beyond C2 for language learners, but I didn't mean to take it out of the context of reading. I plan to participate in the GDS in Nov, which is why this thread interests me. It'd be great if I could skip the oral exam, but it's all part of the package. I have to go in on a separate day for the oral exam. I have to give a presentation (Vertrag), there's also smaller sections on dictation and pronunciation.
Most foreign language learners might not see the need to prove proficiency beyond C2, but since I live in Germany it's important for me personally, to show that I can read and communicate on a native level. Actually I read quite a bit from Eulenspiegel online and found it easier than the sample that Sprachprofi gave us. That was a stretch! That Anke Behrend prides herself on her references doesn't she ;) EDIT: I was just about to come up with an idea for Eng. but now I see Jinx beat me to it. --Naked Lunch,-- good choice! Edited by Sunja on 25 April 2011 at 1:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Romanist Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5080 days ago 261 posts - 366 votes Studies: Italian | Message 43 of 50 25 April 2011 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
Tell me about it! (I still have nightmares about my oral exams and presentations as a university finalist! :-0)
To be honest, I am unconvinced whether it makes very much sense to think in terms of "proficiency beyond C2". My understanding of level C2 is that it is defined as native-equivalent level; so how can this be surpassed by a non-native learner!? Of course there is a discussion as to what "native level" actually means. In any country, there are some native speakers who fall far below par in terms of their literacy, and others who are very much above par - so that one really has to think in terms of an "average native level". However, it seems to me that foreign learners will ultimately find their own intellectual level. (If a person were a monosyllabic daytime-TV-addict in his/her native language, then the chances are probably slim that he/she would ever become a sophisticated intellectual within the context of a foreign language!) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5883 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 44 of 50 25 April 2011 at 2:49pm | IP Logged | |||||
oh yes, "what's native" is really hard to define. I'm sure everybody here can find examples of native speakers who have trouble in their own language. I was giving an Eng. lesson to two gentlemen over 40, and we were discussing the Plusquamperfekt and the Futur 2 in German. They didn't know it and so it was hard for them to grasp it in Eng. (their foreign language) The difference is, these guys are master tool engineers and they don't need to write perfectly or read poetry, for that matter. I guess it depends on what you want to focus on. For those who have degrees and professions -- language may not need to be the primary focus. Edited by Sunja on 25 April 2011 at 2:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Envinyatar Diglot Senior Member Guatemala Joined 5334 days ago 147 posts - 240 votes Speaks: Spanish*, English Studies: Modern Hebrew | Message 45 of 50 25 April 2011 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | |||||
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What about this one in English?
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4082/windyisn.jpg 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Jinx Triglot Senior Member Germany reverbnation.co Joined 5491 days ago 1085 posts - 1879 votes Speaks: English*, German, French Studies: Catalan, Dutch, Esperanto, Croatian, Serbian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Italian, Spanish, Yiddish | Message 46 of 50 26 April 2011 at 2:02am | IP Logged | |||||
Ha, I like that one! It definitely depends on sound similarities rather than reading; if a non-native English speaker were just reading that silently, s/he might have some trouble with it. I'm sometimes able to handle the equivalent type of "sound game" in another language, though, if I read it aloud to myself and listen with "open-minded ears". ;) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tracker465 Senior Member United States Joined 5150 days ago 355 posts - 496 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 47 of 50 26 April 2011 at 2:15am | IP Logged | |||||
Doesn't Freud analyze the etymology and relations to the word “unheimlich” in his essay appropriately titled “Das Unheimliche”? Although the text you posted is above my level of good comprehension, I am already familiar with this example of a double meaning, and don’t think that it would be a stretch for non-native speakers to eventually learn something on this caliber. The double meaning bit reminds me a bit of the joke I heard one time about two German women, new shoes, Blasen and blasen, though I won’t type it here. I guess we could make it even more confusing and add the meaning in regarding the gallbladder, but I don’t think that’s necessary. Regarding the “Naked Lunch” text, at the university I was in a book club, and the five members (all of us English majors) read this text, from cover to cover. It doesn’t really make sense to me still, despite the fact that I could whip through a Shakespeare text effortlessly, or even some Chaucer or other literary works. The only people I know who read “Naked Lunch” are those who enjoy reading literature, and even with this sort of background, the book is a difficult read. Regarding Envinyatar’s link, I like it! I am in personally in the camp who believes that the difference between a native speaker and a non-native speaker who is beyond proficient in a language is the difference in cultural background and experience. Although people may try to separate these two items, there is knowledge that an American or Brit might know in English, which a non-native would not know only due to the difference in background and experience. IMO, this is the factor that allows a backwoods farmer to turn on the TV and fully understand a program, let’s say a comedy or something, whereas a non-native may not “get” everything, despite having a better command of grammar, writing skills, or whatever. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Rob_Austria Heptaglot Groupie Austria Joined 4800 days ago 84 posts - 293 votes Speaks: German*, Italian, Spanish, French, English, Portuguese, Japanese Studies: Croatian, Mandarin, Russian, Arabic (Written), Turkish | Message 48 of 50 26 April 2011 at 2:33am | IP Logged | |||||
I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. Considering the results of the last PISA study with regard to reading and comprehension skills of German and Austrian high school students (I don't know how well our German speaking Swiss friends did), I have serious doubts as to your claim that "the average German native speaker" would be able to grasp the meaning of these sentences let alone "enjoy" a text like this. In my opinion this is way above what the "average" native speaker would enjoy reading. People seem to have lots of problems with much more straightforward writing. This is also my experience as a translator. I had a look at the D1 exam and I'm convinced that very few native speakers would be able to pass the test withouth thorough preparation. I'm sure more than 90 % of our "Maturanten" (your "Abiturienten") would fail. By the way, I'd have to prepare for that exam as well if I were to take it ;-) 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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