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Disappointed about English vocab test | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| QiuJP Triglot Senior Member Singapore Joined 5644 days ago 428 posts - 597 votes  Speaks: Mandarin*, EnglishC2, French Studies: Czech, GermanB1, Russian, Japanese | Message 25 of 69 19 October 2011 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Thanks for the advice, but I met very few good English teacher who helped me when I was struggling. Most of the English teachers saw me as a burden as my grade wasn't good. For some reason, a teacher's career/promotion chance is based on how many students obtain a good grade in the subject the teacher taught. Someone needs to change the education system. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| strikingstar Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 4962 days ago 292 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Cantonese, Swahili Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written) | Message 26 of 69 20 October 2011 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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QiuJP, I can empathize with you.
Once upon a time, I suffered through Singapore's education system as well. And although I managed to do relatively well within the constraints of the system, I have nothing but derision for the system itself. The system unabashedly seeks to sort students into 'tiers' as though they were classes of cattle. Students who perform better on standardized tests are sorted into higher tiers and subsequently end up in better schools while students who do not perform as well are carted off to institutions for vocational education. Oftentimes, there is little choice or free will in the matter. Throughout the years of mandatory education, students are sorted at least three times with the first sorting occurring at as early as the age of 10. This has engendered a situation whereby parents obsess fanatically over their child's grades and will brook no expense in ensuring that their child does not get left behind. However, my greatest criticism regarding Singapore's education system is that it doesn't seem to spark any intellectual curiosity beyond the prescribed schoolbooks. Ask the average guy on the street his opinion about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict or why Africa remains so poor or what he thinks about the OWS movement and you'll likely draw a blank. The standard response will probably be "I dunno" or "Aiyoh, not my problem lah". This apathy is so omnipresent that it extends into many realms, including politics. (To their credit, Singaporeans have been making small steps to becoming more involved in political issues, due to increased debate over the internet as well as a reaction to growing political movements in neighboring countries like Malaysia, Thailand, Burma and the Philippines etc.) But these are indeed just small steps in rectifying an education system that has bred its citizens into a race of robots and sheeple. Edit: Btw, QiuJP, you remind me a little of myself, but in reverse. I ended up in a SAP school (Chinese and English as first languages) although my parents could not read or write any Chinese at all. Any Chinese they learnt to speak came from Ch 8 dramas. My Chinese really wasn't good at all even though I had been forced to learn it as a first language since P5. But of course you know as well as I do that Chinese lessons = 背 a bunch of words from the 词语手册. 但无论我背得多好，我的华文成绩还是欠佳。 Sobz. It was no joke though, I remember getting a C5 for Higher Chinese during my Prelims in Sec 4. I was practically the 2nd or 3rd from the bottom in my class. After secondary school, I went to a JC that spoke predominantly English. One of best friends went to the same JC as I did but I think he started to develop an inferiority complex because he came from a Chinese-speaking family. It got to a point where he started to memorize words from the dictionary in a bid to build up his vocabulary. He would then try to pepper conversations with his newly acquired words regardless of context. It was as though he had something to prove and yet his solution was so very "Singaporean", i.e. memorizing from the dictionary in much the same way as I memorized from the 词语手册. Of course, part of the issue is Singapore's tacit acknowledgement of English as the language of 'prestige' in Singapore. But of course, the growing transcendence of China is gradually raising the profile of Chinese in Singapore. Which goes back to my earlier point regarding intellectual curiosity. Why can't a language be promoted on the basis of interest, whether within the language itself or within the culture in which the language is predominantly spoken. The fact that the language is promoted on the basis of economic expediency just doesn't sit well with me. Edited by strikingstar on 20 October 2011 at 5:06pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
 newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6168 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 27 of 69 20 October 2011 at 2:08pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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It's worse now as Singapore is becoming similar to other countries like Korea in emphasizing tuition and
schooling at a very early age. My sister-in-law was told to send her daughter to tuition so she wouldn't fall behind and suffer esteem problems. She's only 7! Of course, part of the problem is that the teachers encourage outside tuition so students will do better in their class, and they will look more effective. As for being unaware of the world outside their own bubble, that's endemic to kids all over. Edited by newyorkeric on 20 October 2011 at 2:08pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| strikingstar Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 4962 days ago 292 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Cantonese, Swahili Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written) | Message 28 of 69 20 October 2011 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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The situation is downright ridiculous sometimes. Every year, it's a hoot watching
parents as they clamor to enroll their children in the limited number of places in prestigious primary schools. It's the epitome of kiasu-ness. (Kiasu is a Hokkien term which literally refers to a fear of losing out.) And of course I acknowledge that there are kids everywhere who live in their own little bubbles but this is a little dismissive of kids who for example, have protested during the Civil Rights Movement. Or students who are currently protesting in OWS. Or students who have protested the Iraq War or the Vietnam War etc. They have an opinion and they take a stand. And of course this isn't a Western concept. Kids took part in the Arab Spring. Kids took part in the Bersih and Hindraf protests in Malaysia. Kids took to the streets against Thaksin in Thailand. Kids were part of the People Power Revolution in Philippines. Kids took part in Tiananmen Square in China. Kids joined monks in Burma during the Saffron Revolution. Of course, you won't find these same circumstances in Singapore because of its stability. However, in Singapore, my expectation is no longer of them taking action on anything. I've lowered the bar significantly and just hope they can as least form an opinion. In Singapore, the vibe I get is that "If it don't concern me, it don't mean nuthin' to me". And having attended schools in both the US and Singapore, I can say that I've had some scintillating conversations with my American friends which I cannot envisage ever having in Singapore. And yet I don't believe that one group is intellectually superior to the other. Perhaps just more intellectually curious. Somewhere along the way, Singaporeans have allowed themselves to buy into the concept of "Asian values" as espoused by their beloved LKY, swapping certain freedoms for admittedly meteoric economic progress and financial stability. In Singapore, I get the feeling that everyone is defined in terms of their economic worth, i.e. the individual life has no intrinsic value, you only have value when you are able to contribute productively to the economy and there is a positive correlation between your productivity and your value. That is why the education system is the way it is. It filters the brightest minds into the best schools to prepare them for the best jobs in government, civil society and certain well-positioned businesses. Based on perceived intellectual capability, everyone else gets sorted accordingly with the "underachieving" denigrated as a class of social rejects. They go to Institutes of Technical Education (ITEs), known colloquially as "It's The End". This also explains the very top-down approach to politics in Singapore and the need to achieve consensus on many issues. It is a system that strips them of their pride as individuals and shunts them off into their relevant economic role as determined by the hierarchy. PS: I didn't mean to go on a tirade against S'pore today but QiuJP's post just opened an ugly can of worms. I apologize that my post had next to nothing to do with language learning. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5015 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 29 of 69 20 October 2011 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I don't know about the particular details in Singapore, etc. so what I'm about to say might not apply entirely, but I've seen this kind of criticisms towards education systems and labor markets before and I find them highly illogical. Please correct me if I'm being illogical myself, or I misunderstood anything...
First, the mission of an education system is to educate students, i.e. make them more knowledgeable at the end of the process than they were at the beginning. If the following is not obvious to you, ask anyone who has taught for any amount of time: the wider the skill range of the students is, the more difficult it is to keep an efficient pace, i.e. if a rhythm adequate for the better students is kept, the slower ones get 'left behind', and if you center on them, the others are kept from advancing more. So, if we want the system to work the best, it is only natural to sort and separate students and place them in groups according to their skill/achievement levels. Second, different jobs demand different levels of skill/knowledge, so it's logical that 'qualified' positions are primarily oriented to be filled by the students whose qualifications better match the position requirements. I think this is how things should work, and how they actually work in most parts of the world. We see problems arise everywhere because there's more to life, but people often blame these inherent workings of both systems when the issues actually lie somewhere else: The education system killing off students' curiosity is of course a major issue, but student segregation is not its source. If students are not separated, the rhythm is that of the slowest ones, which is a warranty to bore everyone else. The problem here is how classes are conducted. In any labor market, we are bound to find [many] more 'unqualified jobs' than 'qualified' ones. Now, it's natural that parents aim for their children to get the highest paid jobs, but it's simply not possible that they all do. Putting too much pressure on the kids is the parents' fault, no matter if it's due to unrealistic expectations about their potential, and probably ignoring kids' responses, or other factors. Now, if such individuals abound it's possible (if not likely) that these wrong views and behaviors partly stem from your particular education system because individuals with those views reinforce the pattern from the inside. But again that's not inherent to the system basic workings. Sorry about my long posts lately, guess I'm a bit bored :) Edit: BTW, most kids' such stands I've seen are the result of direct manipulation by adults or the media, so I wouldn't generally regard those as signs of independent thought. Edited by mrwarper on 20 October 2011 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| strikingstar Bilingual Tetraglot Senior Member United States Joined 4962 days ago 292 posts - 444 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin*, Cantonese, Swahili Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Written) | Message 30 of 69 20 October 2011 at 6:46pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Herein lies the problem. This claim already presupposes that everyone has no inherent worth apart from the worth derived from their contributions as a functioning economic unit. It is the system that is of primary importance. From a practical point of view, dividing students based on aptitude and allowing them to progress at their own pace is a nice concept. Very neat. And I wouldn't be so critical if everyone was still offered the same subjects in school. But they aren't, because the system doesn't take into account freedom and choice. Not in Singapore at least. Remember how QiuJP complained that he wasn't allowed to study Chinese literature even though his Chinese was good. He had to study English literature instead even though he may not have had any real interest in it. Why should I be forced to study subjects I'm not interested in just because I'm not as capable as another student. Shouldn't I be allowed to study whatever I'm interested in? Why should I be prevented from studying Chinese literature, or Ecology or History just because someone else does better than me at English, Math and Physics. That's the way the system is in Singapore. Doesn't anyone realize that I have an incentive to do better when I'm allowed to study what I'm interested in. And then why does it matter if I spend 3 years studying Chemistry when others spend only 1 year? As long as I'm passionate about Chemistry, no one should stop me from studying it even if it takes me 3 years to do it. If I perform poorly within the system, I don't have a choice in what to study. Instead I get a special curriculum tailored for me. And later on, I am made to attend a technical institute to follow a path I never aspired to. Now imagine if you were a cow and your government came along one day and said: "Cow A has good meat and the right percentage of fat. It's gonna make for some good beef. It's going to Farm A. Cow B produces good milk. It's going to Farm B. You on the other hand, make for neither good beef nor good milk. You're going to Farm C. After two months, you'll be slaughtered and made into sausages for the nearest supermarket". How would you like that? Singapore has produced a good number of successful people and it celebrates its successes but it doesn't readily acknowledge that the system has left just as many people by the wayside. In this manner, it breeds a sense of elitism within the society and causes many to feel inferior about themselves. This is an account by a Singaporean friend. All Singaporean men have to serve in the military for two years. He says: "Many of my men were elementary and middle school dropouts. They felt like they had little to look forward to after their two years in the military were over. They were unlikely to attend college or land high-paying jobs, and had no idea how they were going to make a living. Many of them went AWOL (Absent Without Official Leave) and as punishment their mandatory military service was extended. Because they didn’t have concrete goals they wanted to achieve once they left the army, they felt like serving more time wasn’t delaying the start of their actual adult lives."
I agree with you on this but this is decided largely at the collegiate level. You study engineering and there's a good chance you end doing something related to engineering. Economics/business for finance or management etc. Medicine for the medical professional. Of course nothing is set in stone. But this decision is definitely not made at the age of 10 or 12. How many people know what they want to do at the age of 12? If I want to be a lawyer, that path may be closed to me because I got shunted off to vocational school some years ago. In other words, the system allows little leeway for me to deviate from the path it has chosen for me. The system is stacked against many people who have been sorted into lower tiers.
I never said student segregation is the source. You find this lack of curiosity throughout all tiers within the system. This lack of curiosity stems from a lack of emphasis on critical analysis and independent thought within the system itself. I have recounted how I studied for Chinese by memorizing words from a handbook. Physics and Math were a bunch of equations. The system is too reliant on rote memorization. There's too much emphasis on 'What' instead of 'How' and 'Why'. I cannot speak for other Asian countries where rote learning is the norm, but I know that at least in Malaysia, similar accusations have been leveled against the education system and its role in stifling creative thought. Of course the cynic in me thinks that the more sheeple you can turn the citizenry into, the easier it will be to control them.
Again, this is awfully dismissive of the contributions of kids to worthwhile causes. Of course, I'm referring to older adolescents and young adults when I use the term 'kids', i.e. people in their late teens and early twenties. I suspect that is what newyorkeric had in mind as well when he first mentioned kids living in their own bubbles. I'm pretty young myself and I feel you underestimate the role of youth activism in society. And regardless of whether they were manipulated or otherwise, the fact still remains that they had an opinion, they took a stand and a positive outcome was achieved. Does it diminish their efforts towards the ouster of the likes of Mubarak and Gaddafi in the Middle East even if they had been manipulated? Of course, youth activism would be a largely alien concept in Singapore. In fact any form of activism for the most part. Which is my main point. That the system has fomented a level of apathy in the citizenry. Edited by strikingstar on 20 October 2011 at 7:13pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| newyorkeric Diglot Moderator Singapore Joined 6168 days ago 1598 posts - 2174 votes Speaks: English*, Italian Studies: Mandarin, Malay Personal Language Map | Message 31 of 69 21 October 2011 at 2:57am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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The thread is moving off topic, particularly with the political stuff. If you would like to continue the discussion along these lines, please do so privately. Edited by newyorkeric on 21 October 2011 at 2:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| lindseylbb Bilingual Triglot Groupie ChinaRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4721 days ago 92 posts - 126 votes Speaks: Mandarin*, Cantonese*, English Studies: Japanese, Korean | Message 32 of 69 21 October 2011 at 7:42pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I was reading "From third world to first", wrote by LKY, there is a chapter talk about language policy. I think what he tried to tell me was:There would be not singapore without English. He was in the same delimma as you are. don't know about singapore economic structure but I think outport is one of the major. The whole contry rely on it. btw, kids are ont involved in Tiananmeb square, those are college students. Pensonally I don't think kids should be involve in politics. There is not way they would understand what is really going on, on the stage onthe back, power and economy. They just follow the adults or the other people. We who live in what is happening may not see the whole picture, how can kids? Teenagers on the other hand, should start to think about it, but not act. Power debate is fun, but not our game for now. Thinking before action. I started being interested in politics when I was 13. Being 17 years old now I think I know about politics, but I also know how easy I can get influenced. And puzzled......弱国无外交，小国无政治。The book tells me how small contry makes its living, which is so different from china's. As so called well-educated, I think we should understand the background, the root under the tree, the gene behind the trait. Then we can do better than complaint. And this thread reminds me of a singaporean TV series 小孩不笨, the joke about 精英，精华. Forgive me for my grammar mistakes and things, it's two o'clock in the moring in china... Edited by lindseylbb on 21 October 2011 at 7:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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