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Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 3057 days ago

3277 posts - 6777 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 625 of 1317
15 July 2013 at 11:33pm | IP Logged 
Yes, we know learning takes time and of course we try to spend it more efficiently to reduce the amount of time. But I think the 10000 hours is just a nice reminder that some parts of learning are quite impossible to shorten, no matter whether they take 300 hours, 2000, or 15 000, and seeing this number might sometimes even have a soothing effect (like "I have a right to not be perfect and make mistakes. after all, I still haven't spent that much time on the language"). I wouldn't blame the number for pointlessly selling books, I believe there are worse ideas doing that.
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s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 3478 days ago

2704 posts - 5424 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 626 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 12:51am | IP Logged 
I have no objection to the use of any number if that can have a positive effect on the learner. My only quibble is that
this number becomes a gospel, as is the case with the 10,000 hour figure. On the other hand, I believe that it is
possible to shorten learning times with the right methods and tools. Let's say that I work with a really good tutor, I
might be able to clean up my mistakes and significantly improve my speaking ability with 40 hours of one on one
tutoring instead of wandering around in the wilderness for 150 hours on my own.   Or I find a great book that really
speaks to me and speeds up the learning process. This is why we are here and this is what makes the logs
interesting.
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geoffw
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
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1134 posts - 1865 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish
Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 627 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 1:13am | IP Logged 
emk wrote:

Has anybody else noticed that Khatzumoto's prescription for awkward speaking skills is to
develop
basically C2 listening comprehension
? This seems rather unusual, to say the least.


Seems a little counter-intuitive, and certainly not scientific, but I can imagine that he may have a point. For one, I
think it's just that increasing input is almost always easier to do than increasing output. But furthermore, I've
personally experienced some success with this (though I haven't been nearly so committed, and my results reflect
that). I think it's best if you at least keep up with regular output rather than going silent (but it's not like I'm
worried that'd happen to you anytime soon). Yet I've found myself unexpectedly producing certain output
intuitively, instantly and "fluently" in German, and then realized that it was the result of massive input coming to
fruition months later. I hear, e.g., the gender of a word in context enough times and it sounds so odd to use the
wrong one that I wouldn't think to get it wrong.
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Cavesa
Triglot
Senior Member
Czech Republic
Joined 3057 days ago

3277 posts - 6777 votes 
Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1
Studies: Spanish, German, Italian

 
 Message 628 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 1:39am | IP Logged 
I have the same experience, Geoff. (Even though not with German yet)
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patrickwilken
Senior Member
Germany
radiant-flux.net
Joined 2581 days ago

1546 posts - 3200 votes 
Studies: German

 
 Message 629 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 10:14am | IP Logged 
emk wrote:
Let's just ignore Gladwell for minute, and take a look at the work of K. Anders Ericsson, who proposed the original "10,000 hours" rule long before Gladwell popularized it. Ericsson appears to be one of those scientists like Krashen: He has a single, really important idea that he defends well, but he doesn't do nuance. You can find a recent summary of his ideas on his website.


I have been reading Ericsson a bit, and he says quite clearly that there is no such thing as a 10000 hour rule. The point is just that it takes a long time to be an expert. The original 10000 hour number came from students in a music school in Berlin, and 10000 hours was about how long the expert students had worked up to that point. There was absolutely no indication that those students were then at the peak of their career and could now stop studying.

How long? That depends in part on how competitive the field is. The amount of time you need to practice for an Olympic gold medal has been going up and up since the Games restarted.

To me the more interesting question is how many hours do I need to get to C1 German, and then later C2. My guess is that I need to do somewhere in the range of 1500-2000 hours work for solid C1 and then perhaps 3-4x more for early C2. Or to put it another way about two years solid study to get comfortably into C1, and then some more years to get to C2.

But crossing the line into C2 is not the end goal. C2 is just when you start really being able to use nuance and shades of meaning in language, and to really get good takes a lifetime. My English is still improving after more than +45 years, but I work as an editor and write and so I am clearly applying something like deliberative practice - but my English remains nowhere near as good as some people who have been working hard as writers for many many years.



Edited by patrickwilken on 16 July 2013 at 10:23am

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s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 3478 days ago

2704 posts - 5424 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 630 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 11:22am | IP Logged 
Just as a little footnote to this discussion of the so-called 10,000 hour rule, I thnik of the many people here at
HTLAL, myself included, who profess to speak three, four or more languages. French is considered one of the
easiest languages to learn for English-speakers. I shudder to think what learning Russian or Arabic must be like.
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emk
Diglot
Moderator
United States
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 Message 631 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 3:49pm | IP Logged 
If you wish to discuss the 10,000 hour rule, please start a new thread in one of the public forums. This topic is now closed, as far as my log is concerned. Thank you.

Some things which I am currently enjoying in French

I've got a whole mess of French media lying around the house, and I'm randomly tackling whatever is at hand when I have a spare moment. So I'm in the middle of about 10 different things. A few are listed below.

La Trilogie Nikopol. A classic BD, which I think lorinth recommended a few pages ago. The author grew up in Yugoslavia under Tito, which probably explains the fascist dystopian Paris he created for this BD. Considered as a work of art, La Trilogie Nikopol is so far a lot more substantial than L'Incal. There's a certain dry humor underlying this story.

Kaamelott. Funny, and a good challenge. The subtitles are abbreviated but otherwise reasonably accurate. I like the really short episodes.

Le Trône de fer. More blood, sex and conspiracy, of course. (I've read several of the books in English, so this comes as no surprise.)

Angel, season 2. It looks like this series is finally digging in and getting serious after a rather casual first season. Apparently there's a couple of good seasons before it wanders off and gets lost.

L'Homme des jeux. In honor of the recent death of Ian M. Banks, I'm reading the French translation of one of his Culture novels. This is an excellent and enjoyable piece of SF by a master, and the French translation is pretty reasonable.

Edited by emk on 16 July 2013 at 3:49pm

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geoffw
Triglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 2736 days ago

1134 posts - 1865 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish
Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian

 
 Message 632 of 1317
16 July 2013 at 4:02pm | IP Logged 
emk wrote:


Le Trône de fer. More
blood, sex and conspiracy, of course. (I've read several of the books in English, so this comes as no surprise.)



Looks like this is the TV show, not the book? Are you reading the book(s) in French? I went through the first season
of the series with the US DVDs with the French dubbing and subs that came with it about 6 months ago, but I'm
still working on finishing the first book. I had put it aside for a few months because it was a bit too advanced
for me to enjoy at the time--I wanted to get your take on how hard it is for you to keep up with the vocab in
this one. (BTW, this is one of those books that are written in English, popular, and I've read, but never in English. I
read it in German, and then dove in with both French and Italian translations and read book 2 in Dutch.)

EDIT: Holy run-on sentence, Batman! Added a period and the hyphen.


Edited by geoffw on 16 July 2013 at 4:04pm



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