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The role and usefulness of Irish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 49 of 162 20 June 2010 at 2:14pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
It's not exactly what Solfrid Cristin said. She gave the reasons why we learn English well. Compulsory education is one of the reasons why we learn English well. If we weren't forced to learn English from an early age, a lot of children wouldn't learn it well, just like a lot of children wouldn't learn maths well if it wasn't compulsory. However, compulsory English is only one of the factors why we succeed. It is compulsory education in combination with other factors such as undubbed TV that make us succeed. I don't think Scandinavian children learn English because they want to watch TV. TV programs are subtitled, so it's not necessary to know the language. You get a richer experience if you do, but it is not necessary. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Declan1991 Tetraglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6440 days ago 233 posts - 359 votes Speaks: English*, German, Irish, French | Message 50 of 162 20 June 2010 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
And that is backed up by personal experience with compulsory education both here in Ireland, and anecdotal evidence from numerous Dutch and Germans I've spoken to. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| tractor Tetraglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5454 days ago 1349 posts - 2292 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English, Spanish, Catalan Studies: French, German, Latin | Message 51 of 162 20 June 2010 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
Solfrid also said: "Give us that amount of exposure in Russian, including the compulsury learning since the 1st grade, and we'll amaze you with our Russian as well. :-)" So, she hasn't said that compulsory education is irrelevant. Anyway, she can clarify her views if she feels to. Just because compulsory education doesn't work in one country, doesn't mean that compulsory education won't work in another country. Most Scandinavians wouldn't learn English well if we didn't have easy access to native sources and if we weren't exposed to English on a daily basis through TV, but most Scandinavians wouldn't learn English well either if we didn't learn English in school from an early age. As I've said, compulsory education is one of the factors. Other factors are TV, music, usefulness and the fact that English is related to our native language. Dutch and Scandinavians speak English quite well. A lot of Germans speak English well also. I would guess that the average German pupil gets a lot less exposure from native sources though, since they watch dubbed TV and movies. Maybe they do learn something in school? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Declan1991 Tetraglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6440 days ago 233 posts - 359 votes Speaks: English*, German, Irish, French | Message 52 of 162 20 June 2010 at 7:55pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That said, I feel that stout is glossing over the fact that compulsory education in French/German/Spanish or Italian for six years in Ireland doesn't produce many students who have reasonable proficiency in the language. Somehow, magically, removing Irish would make this work, but that I find ridiculous. My reasoning behind it is that most feel there is no incentive. All tourists (and many come, particularly to my area) speak excellent English, anywhere they go abroad all speak English (even in Europe) and they are never exposed to foreign language films or music. My reasoning might be wrong, but my main point, is that since it is already not working, there is no reason to say that removing Irish will produce generations of fluent French speakers, or even average ones. Edited by Declan1991 on 20 June 2010 at 7:59pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 53 of 162 20 June 2010 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
No, she's talking about the whole package.
Yes, but as it is only one of many factors, it's independent usefulness cannot be measured except by comparison to countries where the other other factors do not exist. Ireland is one of the best case studies, because Irish and English are only very distantly related (10 millenia of independent evolution, or something mental like that), English is the main language of TV and music and English is of vastly higher utility. All Irish has supporting it in many parts of Ireland is the compulsory education, and that alone is ineffective. Introduce French or Spanish and all the factors are pretty much the same. Introduce German and the language difference drops to about 3 millenia, but other than that, nothing. Yes, some kids will go on holidays to Spain or France or Germany, but how many of them will only be their on package tours? They'll never see a need to learn the language. And you will not be able to cater to individual choice anyway. The language you learn will be whatever language is taught at your school because they cannot offer the breadth of choice. You will never be able to give each kids the language that is most useful to him. Instead, you look to educate the child in a more holistic sense and try to give them experience in the process of learning languages. School is, after all, where we train children to think, not to do. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Cainntear Pentaglot Senior Member Scotland linguafrankly.blogsp Joined 6012 days ago 4399 posts - 7687 votes Speaks: Lowland Scots, English*, French, Spanish, Scottish Gaelic Studies: Catalan, Italian, German, Irish, Welsh | Message 54 of 162 20 June 2010 at 8:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
An opinion it may be, and entitled to it you are, but it is categorically wrong. Irish is useful in and of itself as it allows you to read certain pieces of literature. It allows you to talk to people in their own language rather than forcing them to interact with you in what they consider their "second" language. Irish is useful pedagogically as it equips the learner with a knowledge of how things change. In particular, some of the pronunciation rules teach phonological concepts and relationships intuitively that students of linguistics or of other languages struggle with. Even if the pedagogical value of Irish is no greater than (eg) Spanish, it does not make Irish "not useful", but rather "no more useful than". 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Tally Bilingual Diglot Senior Member Israel Joined 5609 days ago 135 posts - 176 votes Speaks: English*, Modern Hebrew* Studies: French | Message 55 of 162 20 June 2010 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Is there lots of literature in Irish?
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| Declan1991 Tetraglot Senior Member Ireland Joined 6440 days ago 233 posts - 359 votes Speaks: English*, German, Irish, French | Message 56 of 162 20 June 2010 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
3 persons have voted this message useful |
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