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Are we all a bunch of wusses? | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5917 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes  Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 129 of 151 09 December 2009 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | ||
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Actually, I lived in London for a year, but that was after I started being able to fool Americans. I can say, though, that I couldn't pass for a native at 16. I attended a predominantly American-speaking school from 16-19 so I had lots of practice, but anybody could achieve the same thing by practicing and trying to shed their foreign accent.
I guess we've been discussing two different things here - do we all agree on the possibility of getting a native accent then? I agree about the cultural issues, those are very difficult to pick up on, though I still wouldn't say impossible. We had this discussion recently in another thread, and I think the conclusion for me is that I'll settle (cough) for a native-sounding accent, a pretty much error-free use of the language in terms of grammar and vocabulary, and a decent understanding of the cultural aspects, but if I can't make sense of every single national private joke or all the subtleties I think I can forgive myself :-) A lot of that stuff is really obscure anyway, and the natives don't all know the same things about their own culture and language either. But yeah, definite issues there that learners need to sort out if they want to use the language well at an advanced level. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6130 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 130 of 151 09 December 2009 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | ||
I don't know exactly how old he is but I would guess around 30. I don't think it is cheating at all if you live in the country a long time. A counter-example is a woman I know who was born in the Ukraine but has lived in the U.S. since she was 17 (45 years) and has an American husband to whom she has been married most of that time. You know she is not a native speaker almost right way. Some people have an ear for language and some don't. Another example, my daughter's boyfriend moved here from the Ukraine at age 18. He is 23 and speaks with a very slight accent but has perfect grammar and a very impressive vocabulary (certainly better than most native speakers). However his twin brother (fraternal) has a thick accent and still has problems speaking proper English... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5846 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 131 of 151 09 December 2009 at 11:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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I don't know - The idea of this is that the speaker should be able to pass himself off as a nationality that he definitely isn't. I totally agree that it's possible to achieve near perfect grammar and excellent pronouncation.
Lizzern, have you ever met anyone who moved to Norway as an adult and doesn't have any trace of a foreign accent? I doubt that even a Swedish person could manage that! I just don't see that a British or German person (for example) could manage such a thing. All the examples are related to people who had PLENTY of exposure to English while growing up, and then moving to an English speaking country at a young age. I want an example with an American who can pass himself off as French (for example) or a Spanish speaker who can pass for a German. Or for instance if I travelled to Russia and was mistaken for a native,... Baiscally someone who started learning the language in their late teens or as an adult. Edited by cordelia0507 on 09 December 2009 at 11:34pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Gusutafu Senior Member Sweden Joined 5529 days ago 655 posts - 1039 votes Speaks: Swedish* | Message 132 of 151 09 December 2009 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | ||
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In order to pass the test for American I think the contestant should have to sound like he is from a particular place in America. And the people from that place would have to be the ones accepting him. Otherwise it is too easy, everyone would just say "he speaks perfect English, but he doesn't sound like where I'mfrom, he's probably from some other place" and he gets away with it.
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| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5846 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 133 of 151 09 December 2009 at 11:58pm | IP Logged | ||
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Gusutafu, have you ever met someone who didn't grow up in Sweden/Finland but could speak Swedish like a native? I haven't.
Have met Germans and Poles who speak first-rate Swedish and are 100% happily integrated. But the accent is there. Also with Danes, Norwegians and Finns you can always hear it. Edited by cordelia0507 on 10 December 2009 at 12:09am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| JW Hexaglot Senior Member United States youtube.com/user/egw Joined 6130 days ago 1802 posts - 2011 votes 22 sounds Speaks: English*, German, Spanish, Ancient Greek, French, Biblical Hebrew Studies: Luxembourgish, Dutch, Greek, Italian | Message 134 of 151 10 December 2009 at 12:05am | IP Logged | ||
Respectfully, there are many of us who have moved around the country and lived outside the country who have more of a standard American accent--myself included. I defy anyone to tell what regional accent I have: http://www.youtube.com/user/egwpisteuw Thus I disagree about your "particular place" requirement (respectfully). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Lizzern Diglot Senior Member Norway Joined 5917 days ago 791 posts - 1053 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, English Studies: Japanese | Message 135 of 151 10 December 2009 at 12:06am | IP Logged | ||
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I met a guy last year who spoke practically flawless Norwegian, accent and all, it was ridiculously impressive and basically convinced me that a native or near-native accent is a huge part of it if you want people to effortlessly treat you as one of their own people. I didn't ask him about his Norwegian but considering the language and his work situation, I can't imagine he would have started studying the language if he hadn't moved here for work. He was a native speaker of either Spanish or Portuguese, I didn't ask. (If I'd known I would be using him as an example I would've asked for more details!)
I also have an American friend who has been studying Norwegian for less than 3 years and is well on her way to a perfect native-sounding accent. Hard to tell where things will go from here, but she speaks it really well already. Also, it's pretty widely known over here that some speakers of Slavic languages end up sounding indistinguishable from native speakers, sometimes in a surprisingly short time. (Others from the same countries - quite the opposite. Unfortunately.) I used to know a Polish woman who fits that description (who definitely moved to Norway as an adult), and I've heard of other examples (friends of someone I know, quite concrete examples) though I don't know any of those people personally. I also know of a specific case of a teenager who moved here and developed a native accent within a year. I forget where she was from, but I think she was Russian. But honestly, I'm far too oriented around the international setting to know that many foreign learners of Norwegian. Edited by Lizzern on 10 December 2009 at 12:10am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| cordelia0507 Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 5846 days ago 1473 posts - 2176 votes Speaks: Swedish* Studies: German, Russian | Message 136 of 151 10 December 2009 at 12:11am | IP Logged | ||
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Interesting examples!
Hmmm, well ok then! I admit that it's possible albeit not the norm.. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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