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Chinese characters - inefficient? | ||
Tags: Chinese Characters | Mandarin | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Specific Languages |  | |
| Captain Haddock Diglot Senior Member Japan kanjicabinet.tumblr. Joined 6577 days ago 2282 posts - 2814 votes  Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, Korean, Ancient Greek | Message 73 of 132 11 December 2009 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Isn't Cantonese a special case in having a fairly well-developed writing tradition and publishing industry that is
independent from Mandarin? My understanding is that most of the other Chinese languages have no writing system apart from standard Mandarin/Chinese. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| akemi Bilingual Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5270 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* Studies: French | Message 74 of 132 12 December 2009 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
China is a vast place with many regional dialects and accents. Cantonese speakers don't understand Mandarin and vice versa. This is the same for Shanghainese, Taiwanese, and Hakka - these can all be put under the Chinese Language, but the dialects are so different from each they are like different languages - in the spoken sense. Yet ALL these dialects are united by Chinese Characters. This is why China would never throw out its current Character system, and also why this system has been used for over 2000 years. So, the "writing tradition and publishing industry that is independent from Mandarin" does not make sense, because any literate person in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China can read published works from the 3 countries (although the Simplified and Traditional Character differences might be a hassle, it's possible.) A lot of Mainland Chinese buy books at the HK Airport that are banned in China itself. Edited by akemi on 12 December 2009 at 12:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| YoshiYoshi Senior Member China Joined 5340 days ago 143 posts - 205 votes Speaks: Mandarin* | Message 75 of 132 13 December 2009 at 6:43am | IP Logged | |||||
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IMHO, as a matter of fact, Cantonese, Minnan (Taiwanese), Hakka, & Teochew (a branch of Minnan), they each have their own distinguishing features (used on informal occasions, but hardly for publishing), as long as an "odd" or incorrect character appears, usually there must be an original or correct character hidden behind the scenes, and it's well-known that, Minnan, along with Teochew, is overall a more complicated dialect in terms of "double pronunciation system" by comparison with Cantonese. On the whole, Cantonese isn't so hard for Mandarin speakers, for example, (1) it seems as if we've ever watched this news on TV, in Mandarin (traditional), 我們好像在電視上看過這條新聞, in Cantonese, 我哋好似响電視度睇過呢條新聞. (2) 3 times per day, 1 pill per time, take it on a full stomach, in Mandarin, 一天吃三次，每次一片，飯後吃, in Cantonese, 一日食三次，一次一粒，飯後食. However, I feel that Minnan (& Teochew) might be a daunting challenge for non-native learners.
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| akemi Bilingual Diglot Newbie United States Joined 5270 days ago 4 posts - 4 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin* Studies: French | Message 76 of 132 13 December 2009 at 7:39am | IP Logged | |||||
I agree that each of these dialects have their own twists in word usage. My family speaks Hakka, Taiwanese (Minnan if you want), and Mandarin, and I know Hakka and Minnan each have very interesting additional words that don't have corresponding Chinese characters. And yes, Cantonese is much closer to Mandarin. What I was trying to specify for learners of "Chinese" is that there are a LOT of spoken dialects that are united under the Chinese Written System, regardless of whether specific regional "slang" have their corresponding characters. Obviously, Chinese learners learn Mandarin because that's the lingua franca of Chinese people. While Hakka, Minnan, Cantonese, Shanghainese, etc are used in specific regions. And even these speakers learn Mandarin in the school systems. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| maxb Diglot Senior Member Sweden Joined 6992 days ago 536 posts - 589 votes 7 sounds Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Mandarin | Message 77 of 132 15 December 2009 at 3:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
I'm sorry but I really don't see how the characters unite the dialects. It would be more correct to say that China is unified linguistically by the fact that everyone writes in mandarin. Written Shanghainese or Cantonese for example cannot be understood directly unless you study it. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| OneEye Diglot Senior Member Japan Joined 6659 days ago 518 posts - 784 votes Speaks: English*, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, Taiwanese, German, French | Message 78 of 132 15 December 2009 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | |||||
This is not quite accurate. Mandarin is a spoken language, not a written one. Standard Chinese or Vernacular Chinese refers to the written language, and though it is often fairly close to Mandarin, it also diverges from Mandarin, particularly in more formal contexts where it more closely resembles Classical Chinese. Written colloquial forms of dialects are just that -- colloquial. They aren't standardized and they're generally used only in informal situations. Everyone learns to read and write Standard Chinese. Not everyone can read and write colloquial written Cantonese. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Asiafeverr Diglot Senior Member Hong Kong Joined 6151 days ago 346 posts - 431 votes 1 sounds Speaks: French*, English Studies: Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, German | Message 79 of 132 15 December 2009 at 4:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Even though it is not formal, there is still a somewhat standard written Cantonese. The
Cantonese equivalent of 们 is always written 哋, the equivalent of 不 is always written 唔, etc. This is probably because it has a de-facto status in Hong Kong and Macao while no other dialect enjoy this privilege. I asked many native Shanghainese speakers how to write the equivalent of 不, 了 and 个 in their language and the answers I get from various speakers are never consistent with each other because they do not learn how to write their language at school. Edited by Asiafeverr on 15 December 2009 at 4:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6718 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 80 of 132 15 December 2009 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I was reading about Shanghainese yesterday and found this information:
Putting his words into practice, Qian (Nairong) has even compiled “The Dictionary of Shanghai Dialect,” said to be the most complete book about the tongue. The dictionary was published in August and Qian is currently working on building an input system to type the dialect on computers. http://shanghaivixen.blog.com/2007/09/19/gang-sangheiwu-va/ The project's greatest achievement is that it lets users input Chinese Pinyin according to the Shanghai dialect's pronunciation. It is a more advanced system than the standard computer input method in which users have to shift from the Shanghai dialect into Mandarin, Qian said in the report. Some netizens oppose the system, arguing that it is unnecessary, because Mandarin is gaining popularity throughout the country as the most popular dialect. But Qian said protecting the Shanghai dialect is an essential job in a diversified society. Dialects, as witnesses of history, represent a nation's strength, he said. http://china.org.cn/china/local/2008-07/27/content_16079021. htm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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