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Turkish family of languages

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!LH@N
Triglot
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Germany
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 Message 33 of 88
09 December 2007 at 9:01am | IP Logged 
I have no trouble understanding Azeri songs and stuff. I've looked at the turkmen website (thanks a lot for the link!) and it's fairly easy to read, though some words are written in a weird way (from a native Turks point of view).
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William Camden
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 Message 34 of 88
09 December 2007 at 2:27pm | IP Logged 
The colloquial of the Iraqi Turkmen is supposed to be closer to Azerbaijani, but on the "Turkmeneli" satellite channel they speak Istanbul Turkish, more or less.    
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24karrot
Diglot
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speakingboricua.blog
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 Message 35 of 88
09 December 2007 at 8:54pm | IP Logged 
zhiguli wrote:
A small list of Turkish words in Persian:

اردک ordak (ördək) duck
قاز qâz (qaz) goose
قو qu (qu) swan
درنا dornâ (durna) crane
قاشق qâshoq (qaşıq) spoon
قوطی quti (qutu) box
اطاق otâq (otaq - oda in Tr.) room
چی chi - the suffix çi, used for names of professions
and indeed اردو, which is defined as "camp" in one dictionary (Haim) but also "an army camp. an army. the Urdu language of Pakistan." in another (Aryanpur-Kashani).

A quick glance through the former (which notes the origin of all non-Persian words) gives the impression that there really aren't that many Turkish loan words in Persian, certainly less than ones I see labeled as French or English.

24karrot wrote:

As for other words, the only one I (think) was adopted from Turkish is barkhi...


Haim does not give anything for برخی.


I wouldn't have recognized any of those words as Turkish but that's very useful. Interesting the appearance of ط in otaq (اطاق) then, I thought it would be mostly reserved for Arabic. There's also a lot of qaf (ق)... is Turkish really so full of q/gh?
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William Camden
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 Message 36 of 88
10 December 2007 at 1:53am | IP Logged 
Ottoman Turkish was written in the Arabic alphabet and used those letters in the many Arabic loanwords, but sometimes even the words of Turkic origin were spelled in that way - qaf for K, etc. It did not make learning to read any easier.
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zhiguli
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 Message 37 of 88
10 December 2007 at 3:02am | IP Logged 
24karrot wrote:
I wouldn't have recognized any of those words as Turkish but that's very useful. Interesting the appearance of ط in otaq (اطاق) then, I thought it would be mostly reserved for Arabic. There's also a lot of qaf (ق)... is Turkish really so full of q/gh?


Mostly, yes, but in the case of ص ط ق AFAIK these were used mainly with back-vowel words, while front-vowel words tended to be spelled with ك ت س. So sağ (healthy/right hand side) was spelled صاغ while sevmek (to love) was spelled سومك.
(Persian, for its part, also has a fair number of native words whose spelling/pronunciation were Arabicized and nowadays considered to be Arabic words)

ك being the front-vowel counterpart of ق, any affixes containing these letters were thus "harmonized" (ق turning into غ intervocalically) so
gelecek "he will come" = كله جك
geleceğim "i will come" = كله جكم
bakacak "he will look" = باقاجق
bakacağım "i will look" = باقاجغم
Azeri still has this consonant harmony (q ğ vs k y) but in Turkish ق ك have been collapsed to k and and غ ك (گ( to ğ.
In modern Azeri q ق is pronounced like g; in Turkish it is k. The letter ط in most (native Turkic) words is now spelled/pronounced d in Azeri and t in Turkish.
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ElfoEscuro
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cyworld.com/brahmapu
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 Message 38 of 88
10 December 2007 at 11:45pm | IP Logged 
zhiguli wrote:
A small list of Turkish words in Persian:

اردک ordak (ördək) duck
قاز qâz (qaz) goose
قو qu (qu) swan
درنا dornâ (durna) crane
قاشق qâshoq (qaşıq) spoon
قوطی quti (qutu) box

Very interesting! I can clearly see cognates with Uzbek:
o'rdak = duck
g'oz = goose
oqqush = swan
turna = crane
qoshiq = spoon
quti = box
I wonder why Persian loaned words for birds from Turkic?
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solka
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Kazakhstan
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 Message 39 of 88
27 December 2007 at 5:46am | IP Logged 
As a native of Kazakhstan and a learner of Turkish, I think I can add something to this discussion.

I have heard/read Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uzbek, Tatar (a language of Tatarstan in Russia), Turkish and Azerbaijani. I guess Kazakh/Kyrgyz and Turkish are on the opposite sides of the Turkic languages range. As I started learning Turkish, I can understand about 50-70 % of Tatar on TV (if I listen very attentively), and it seams like a mix between Kazakh and Turkish. The grammar of all the languages are similar, but the vocabulary differs quite a lot. Also, I have noticed that many words that are the same in Kazakh and Turkish, are actually of Persian or Arabic origin.

As for false friends among the names of family members: in different parts of Kazakhstan, some family terms are different and even opposite ('tate' can mean an uncle or an aunt, apa can mean anything from grandmother to 'aunt' to even mom).

24karrot wrote:
I wouldn't have recognized any of those words as Turkish but that's very useful. Interesting the appearance of ط in otaq (اطاق) then, I thought it would be mostly reserved for Arabic. There's also a lot of qaf (ق)... is Turkish really so full of q/gh?

I have heard that Turkish had the sounds of q and gh quite recently, before the alphabet reform, but they disappeared after being replaced by the same letters as k and g. And still in the dialects of Eastern Turkey use them quite a lot. And they have never disappeared from Kazakh language.

By the way, !LH@N, Zhiguli was correct about the song of Ulytau. The song is called after the names of 2 friends, one - Jumyr or Zhumyr (the first sound is not like Turkish 'y') and Kylysh. we are still used to transliterate according to the rules of Russian-English transliteration, but there are talks about changing the script to Latin.      
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!LH@N
Triglot
Senior Member
Germany
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Speaks: German, Turkish*, English
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 Message 40 of 88
27 December 2007 at 7:58am | IP Logged 
Hi!
Thanks a lot for the information. Sorry for spreading any false information. I think somebody then needs to tell this dudes they're wrong.

Regards,
Il


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