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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6390 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes  4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 193 of 299 27 October 2013 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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But isn't it more about exposure?
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| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4500 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 194 of 299 27 October 2013 at 6:29pm | IP Logged | ||
That helps with understanding the dialectal words but I spoke to someone from Trondheim and he clearly was not speaking their dialect but some mix between Swedish/Norwegian. The pronunciation is different too. So I'd say it's not comparable. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5223 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 195 of 299 27 October 2013 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | ||
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As I follow this revival of the debate about the ex-Yugoslavian languages, it would seem that the Bosnian
language is a figment of the imagination. No problem with Serbian and Croatian but Bosnian doesn't seem to exist as a distinct language. On the other hand, I read this in Wikipedia about Bosnian : "The International Organization for Standardization (ISO),[21] United States Board on Geographic Names (BGN), and the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names (PCGN) recognize the Bosnian language. Furthermore the status of the Bosnian language is also recognized by bodies such as the United Nations, UNESCO, and translation and interpreting accreditation agencies.[22] Serbia includes the Bosnian language as an elective subject in primary schools.[23] Montenegro officially recognizes the Bosnian language; its 2007 Constitution specifically states that while Montenegrin is the "official language", also "in official use are Serbian, Bosnian, Albanian and Croatian languages."[24][25] Controversy The name for the language is a controversial issue, primarily for Croats and Serbs and it is alternatively referred to as "Bosniak" (bošnjački; also spelled "Bosniac").[26] The name "Bosnian language" is controversial for those Serbs and Croats who think the name of the language implies it is the language of all Bosnians, which includes Bosnian Croats and Serbs. Croats and Serbs mostly use the Croatian and the Serbian, respectively. It should be noted that all three languages are mutually intelligible and are examples of Ausbausprache. Due to the conjunction of historical circumstances, all are essentially identical due to being codified on the same Neo- Shtokavian dialect, with a number of people identifying their language as the unified Serbo-Croatian language." What gives? Does Bosnian exist or not? It seems that it's the Serbs and Croats who object strongly to the existence of a Bosnian language. Is it a linguistic issue or a political one? How come the ISO, the BGN and the PCGN, the UN and UNESCO recognize a Bosnian language? 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4500 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 196 of 299 27 October 2013 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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Po-
Li- Tics 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6702 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 197 of 299 27 October 2013 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | ||
Yes and no. Some people never adapt because they don't have to, or they simply don't care. The Danes and Norwegians who visit the main library here in town seldom adapt (if at all). Funnily enough, a Danish girl had problems understanding me, so I adapted, then she went to get her father who spoke to me in pure Danish and I used pure Swedish (I doubt I even changed my accent a bit). 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6949 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 198 of 299 27 October 2013 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | ||
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As a neutral observer, I've found it hypocritical on the part of those Croats and Serbs who insist on separate Croatian and Serbian languages that Bosnian doesn't or can't exist. If a coterie of elitists and demagogues already set up Serbo-Croatian to fragment into Croatian and Serbian to align with their new fiefdoms/nation-states and/or consciousness of some lineage of Croats and Serbs to a time before the formation of Yugoslavia, then it should be perfectly amenable to letting Bosnian and Montenegrin exist too. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, right?
One reason thrown about that I've read in Greenberg's mildly biting by sober analysis Language and Identity in the Balkans: Serbo-Croatian and Its Disintegration is that Bosnian is inadmissible as a name since it would imply that Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Serbs respectively don't speak "Croatian" or "Serbian". This is one of the logical but perverted outcomes of willfully letting nation-states and ethnic groups become entwined with their native language, never mind that their native language is standardized on the same sub-dialect as the standard language of the sometimes hostile neighbours. Another reason to excise "Bosnian" and replace it with "Bosniak" or "Bošnjački" is that one can't name a language after a geographical feature (!) (The name "Bosnia" comes from the Bosna river of uncertain etymology). This dubious reason was offered by a Croatian acquaintance who liked to present herself as a patriot and loyal Croat. Ummm, yeah... Have another shot of rakija. Yet another reason that takes politics and historical memory/myth-making as its starting points is that the ancestors of the Bosniaks (understood as the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina) were originally akin or even ancestors of some modern Croats and Serbs (or those who declare themselves as such). Taking the thinking further is that Bosniaks are nothing more than Croats and Serbs who converted to Islam, and so it's incomprehensible that these supposedly lost souls of Croatdom or Serbdom want to stay Islamic and make their own standard language with a different name. In my view this idiocy only has legs because enough people on the speech territory of BCMS/SC cling to the faulty idea of language being equivalent or a reliable proxy for ethnic/tribal affiliation. If this equation could be severed to the point of being viewed as a historical curiosity, a lot of the nationalist rhetoric related to language policy and craving for language recognition in various political bodies would become invalid and risible overnight. Edited by Chung on 27 October 2013 at 7:37pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5223 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 199 of 299 27 October 2013 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | ||
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As I try to understand this mystery of the phantom ex-Yugoslavian languages and this very touchy mix of
linguistics and politics, I came across this extract from Wikipedia on the Montenegrin language which seems even more mysterious than Bosnian: "Most mainstream politicians and other proponents of the Montenegrin language state that the issue is chiefly one of self-determination and the people's right to call the language what they want, rather than an attempt to artificially create a new language when there is none. The Declaration of the Montenegrin PEN Center[10] states that the "Montenegrin language does not mean a systemically separate language, but just one of four names (Montenegrin, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian) by which Montenegrins name their part of [the] Shtokavian system, commonly inherited with Muslims, Serbs and Croats". The introduction of the Montenegrin language has been supported by other important academic institutions such as the Matica crnogorska, although meeting opposition from the Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts." So it would seem that the issue is one of name rather than linguistic specificity. This is pretty much what this whole debate is about. We can use different names for essentially the same realities that may be extremely close (Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin), very close (Portuguese and Galician) and quite close (Norwegian, Danish and Swedish). But they are all called separate languages. Edited by s_allard on 27 October 2013 at 7:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 6949 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 200 of 299 27 October 2013 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | ||
That's not to say that it's been purely a matter of nomenclature. See here for a few things that I had gleaned about at least one scholar's attempt to make Montenegrin diverge from BCS. All the same, the whole thing is morbidly fascinating because of the unusually high degree placed on letting language be a symbol rather than a means of communication. To use a bit of an analogy with cars, the paint job, hood ornaments and whether it has automatic or manual transmission count more than what's under the hood or the grade of carbon steel used for the body. 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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