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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4797 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes  Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 17 of 74 24 October 2013 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Both wide vocabulary and deep knowledge of your vocabulary are closely tied with the
amounts of input. I'd say there are approximately the same differences between foreign language learners and among thenatives. Those who read a lot (and listen a lot) have much better passive and active vocabulary than those who don't. And the creativity of usage and ways to employ your words is to some extent transferable between the languages as you just follow the same learning pattern with another language. People having (and using) large vocabulary in their native language tend to have much less trouble acquiring and using the new vocabulary. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5218 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 18 of 74 25 October 2013 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | |||||
Not to make a big deal out of this, I still believe that we are talking about different things. While it is certainly good to have large passive and active vocabulary, it is not necessary in order to talk in a sophisticated manner. Neither am I suggesting that a small vocabulary is a good thing. What I'm saying is that languages like English, Ftench and Spanish - the ones I know relatively well - provide lexical and grammatical resources that allow you to make fine distinctions will relatively few words. Take for example the words DO and MAKE in English. Each is very rich in nuances of meaning. Add the usual prepositions like UP, OUT, OVER, IN and you have a rich set of phrasal verbs. There is a lot that you can do wtih just six words. 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| schoenewaelder Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5348 days ago 759 posts - 1197 votes Speaks: English*, French Studies: German, Spanish, Dutch | Message 19 of 74 25 October 2013 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
Guilty! 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6385 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 20 of 74 26 October 2013 at 2:04am | IP Logged | |||||
And I think I've found an important piece of the puzzle which is my eternal debate with s_allard. For him, knowing the basics includes knowing highly advanced meanings/usage of the basic words. But I'd rather learn the word football before I learn any phrasal verbs or idioms. Edited by Serpent on 26 October 2013 at 2:04am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5218 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 21 of 74 26 October 2013 at 2:48am | IP Logged | |||||
It's not a question of "highly advanced meaning/usage of the basic words." It's the ability to use those basic words to render complex ideas. Let's take the example of that common verb in English GET. How many nuances of meaning are there in the use of GET by itself? Probably at least 10. What's the highly advanced meaning/usage in "Something's got to give," "What can I get you to drink" and "I haven't got a clue?" Add to that the prepositions and you have many phrasal verbs, all based on the same verb GET. I'd think you'd be better off learning how to use the verb GET than the word football. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4495 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 22 of 74 26 October 2013 at 10:53am | IP Logged | |||||
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Not really, since football is a word Serpent uses every day. Football is actually a rare
instance of a word where it should be common sense that it is not the first thing you learn, but since the sport is so popular and I get tonnes of exposure to it, it is always one of the first words I learn in general. Edited by tarvos on 26 October 2013 at 11:26am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6385 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 23 of 74 26 October 2013 at 11:54am | IP Logged | |||||
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Hehe, tarvos is totally right :-)
s_allard, some specific meanings of common words and many phrasal verbs and idioms are taught in advanced level courses. Nouns are important at the beginner level: you won't get far when it's raining and you don't know the word umbrella. (And no, you don't need to learn all meanings for nouns in one go either) Also you are generalizing too much based on what you see in English and Spanish. You'll have to alter your strategy if you ever learn Russian, Finnish, German or even Esperanto. In my opinion, the only reason a beginner might be interested in phrasal verbs is that when natives simplify their speech, they think of the individual words and somehow think that if the verb is common and the preposition is common, you should understand what they are saying. Whereas when it comes to English, a speaker of a Romance language will understand the long and supposedly complicated words easier. (may even happen with other languages if the word in question comes from French or Latin) Your examples are not about the usage of get, imo (except "get you a drink"). The first and last one are more about "have", and the real key word in the last one is actually "clue". 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5218 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 24 of 74 26 October 2013 at 1:06pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I do not doubt that for some people football should be learned before anything else. But if you look at the most
common words in any language I don't think that football is among the first 500 words. Neither is umbrella. On the other hand GET ranks around 47 in the list of most common words in English and fourth or fifth as the most important verb in the English language. That means that you will probably hear GET way before you hear football or umbrella. This is not to say that you should not learn football or umbrella when you need them. I'm simply saying that you get more bang for your buck by learning the most commonly used words in a language. Now if the equivalents of football and umbrella are among the most common words in Russian, Finnish, German and Esperanto, then they should be learned first, by all means. Let's look at the idea that nouns are important at the beginner level. They are important at all levels but it should be pointed out that in English, French and Spanish, at least, the verbs and connector words appear way before nouns in the lists of the most common words. I certainly agree that you have to learn nouns but the glue that binds the nouns is the verbs and the connectors. I see no reason why one should not learn football and umbrella as the first words in the language if that is an immediate reality. My point is that, at least in the languages that I know, the verbs will take you further more quickly. Edited by s_allard on 26 October 2013 at 1:32pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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