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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4499 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 57 of 74 29 October 2013 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | ||
Me too. Assimil actually integrates the latter quite well though. But you can modify the time you take to go through Assimil, I don't use it entirely per the instructions, I just use them as a graded reader. Plus I do some of the translations exercises to check, and the fill in the blanks to train spelling. If you can adapt material well enough to suit your style then that's good. Tinkering is not forbidden. Assimil lessons tend not to be very dry, which is what makes them more useful. But the point is that its layout is the principle, you could effectively design a modular system which uses only native materials. What I like is the concept of using bilingual translations as a crutch, the concept of developing it as a graded reader, and the large amount of audio you get. It's just beginner LR. Edited by tarvos on 29 October 2013 at 2:12pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Lykeio Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4036 days ago 120 posts - 357 votes | Message 58 of 74 29 October 2013 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | ||
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Well this kind of discussion seems like it could rapidly develop into a course
designing debate. I should say I'm not too much in disagreement with you here, in terms of the use of bilingual texts and audio. However the problem I have with Assimil is the arrangement of material. It's not dense enough. I'm flicking through the Italian With Ease now and just look how ridiculously at pains it is to introduce the concept of conjugation. Seriously a paradigm would be MUCH more effective. In general Assimil is too flowery like that, I genuinely believe some of the other ones are better for largely avoiding this stuff. The old Italian just throws you into examples much like a live conversation. Still far too slow, however. Something like a mix between (older) Assimil and the old Living Language courses would be perfect for the general market I think. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4499 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 59 of 74 29 October 2013 at 2:44pm | IP Logged | ||
Exactly. Assimil under its newer guise lacks tempo, which is its main drawback (as is the grammar presentation). I can understand that people may find grammar-heavier editions more dry and that they wouldn't sell as well, so the alternative is to produce bigger editions with more material. Costs more money. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5222 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 60 of 74 29 October 2013 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | ||
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I see that we have many amateur course designers in the house. As someone who actually does a fair amount of
teaching of English and French, I use a combination of my own materials and commercial stuff. There is so much great material available for both languages - and for others of course - that I find that learning materials is not the problem. And I'm not even talking about the Internet. Frankly, in today's world, the self-leaarner can basically have a custom-made syllabus with tons of audio, video, transcriptions, dozens of websites on every conceivable aspect of any language. I don't see what people are complaining about. As for the matter of phrasal verbs, I have to say that I think all has been said. My head hurts when I have to read that turgid prose. Do what works for you. I do what works for me and my students. Give me 300 words and fifty most common verbs in a language and we are in business. I like to work extensively on phonology, especially prosody, so that students start sounding good very early. With the greetings and salutations, basic question forms, patterns for giving and receiving thanks, basic pronouns, especially forms of "it" and key verb patterns, you can start talking very quickly. I also emphasize learning conversation markers that are great for enhancing oral fluency and avoiding that common stuttering and searching for words. I see no reason why a person cannot start talking in a few days. In a limited fashion of course but it's a start. I like to work on ritualized conversations for shopping. How to order in a café, a fast-food restaurant like McDonald's, a supermarket. How to ask questions in the subway or on the bus. With a relatively small repertoire of key phrase patterns and a basic vocabulary, the learner is able to engage the language very quickly. This is why the greetings, salutations and thanking patterns are so important. They can be used right away. Of course, I'm working in an immersion setting where the student can leave the class, go to the cafeteria and use what we just learned. This is why I love the verb GET. It can used used - and overused - in so many ways that students become excited as they can start interacting in a meaningful way. A basic phrase like I get it or I got it can produce amazing results. And of course let's not forget DO, HAVE, BE and MAKE. And we can throw in football and umbrella anytime. Edited by s_allard on 29 October 2013 at 3:05pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4499 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 61 of 74 29 October 2013 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | ||
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I teach Dutch and English too, but only conversational practice usually. I usually do
this very free-form; I let the conversation develop and I let the students talk about whatever subject they want to. I then pay attention to flow, phrasing and confidence and correct them when they make gross errors that impede comprehension. Should the level be very high, I may draw attention to detailed vocabulary or point out advanced constructions. But I try to do this without killing conversational flow. This is to encourage students to dare with their mistakes - I tell them that they shouldn't hold back or be scared - this is the arena where mistakes are allowed. If it's wrong I'll show them how to do it and then we're merrily on our way. No broken egos. Edited by tarvos on 29 October 2013 at 3:12pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6495 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 62 of 74 29 October 2013 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | ||
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Those ritualized conversations may appeal to people who like theatre, but I would definitely prefer discussions about the kings of old Babylonia or the Higgs particle or Bruckner's symphonies ... or language learning.
3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5222 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 63 of 74 29 October 2013 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | ||
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Let's be serious here. The point of ritualized conversations is that many interactions for learners are of a highly
predictable and repetitive nature. I can't expect people to start discussing Bruckner's symphonies after three days, but I can teach them to order something in a café. Right now I'm working with a visiting professor from Turkey who can discuss high-level topics of philosophy in English but complains that he can't have a simple conversation. That's exactly where these ritualized conversation elements are so useful to get started. But the idea of theatre is not really incorrect. I tell my students that speaking a language is actually a lot like a theatrical performance. You start off by learning a bunch of lines with good diction. And in the end you can improvise totally. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Cavesa Triglot Senior Member Czech Republic Joined 4801 days ago 3277 posts - 6779 votes Speaks: Czech*, FrenchC2, EnglishC1 Studies: Spanish, German, Italian | Message 64 of 74 29 October 2013 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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So, let's get it out and be dealt with it instead of "hidden" hints in every third
post, it's getting annoying. Obviously S'allard is getting headaches from my writing and I feel like vomiting when reading his arrogance and the needy attitude "admire my wisdom, you are all stupid." From now on, I am not responding to his posts, no matter how much crap he writes, I think we have already seen several good threads sent to hell due to this. Again, he managed to turn this debate into something totally different than the OP meant, as more people already noted. There are more of us who teach others and who learnt other languages successfully so there is no need to be haughty as usual. And while you make a lot of bold statements concerning how dumbed down this forum is or how you hate reading me (even though you were similarily rude about others who disagreed with you in past as well), you might want to work on your reading comprehension, attitude and manners. You seem to lack all of it. Now that it is out, it no longer needs to leak through any interesting thread Sallard derails. While he sometimes writes very interesting ideas, I would recommend people not to feed the troll once he goes on his usual merry ride. If anyone takes this as a personal attack, report me to moderators, ban me or anything, I'm ok with that. 4 persons have voted this message useful |
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