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Strategy: Learn 600 words a week.

 Language Learning Forum : Questions About Your Target Languages Post Reply
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Linguamor
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5528 days ago

469 posts - 599 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 105 of 167
12 October 2007 at 11:06am | IP Logged 
Iversen wrote:
The sentence was produced to illustrate what a person who didn't know a certain language could understand solely by translating word for word - which must be seen as a worst case scenario.


But for a novice in a certain language that kind of gobbledy-gook might be enough to guess the meaning of the original sentence, ...



Xtremelingo made a claim and I tested it - the string of words cannot be decoded to a clear meaning as Xtremelingo claimed. Of course, in real texts sentences would vary in ease of decoding - some more difficult than that example and some easier.
   

Edited by Linguamor on 12 October 2007 at 11:10am

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apparition
Octoglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5560 days ago

600 posts - 667 votes 
Speaks: English*, Arabic (Written), French, Arabic (Iraqi), Portuguese, German, Italian, Spanish
Studies: Pashto

 
 Message 106 of 167
12 October 2007 at 11:57am | IP Logged 
edwin wrote:
Being inspired by the method posted in this thread, I am going to purpose yet another vocabulary building method.[...]


LOL

*goes looking for instructions on how to engrave cookies*
1 person has voted this message useful



Linguamor
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5528 days ago

469 posts - 599 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 107 of 167
12 October 2007 at 11:59am | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:
Linguamor,
I question the way you presented this arguement to them. If you proposed this idea in a negative way initially (which is what I believe), I can expect you to invoke a certain negative response.


The question was posted on a translators internet site exactly as follows. No other communication was involved.

"I have been given the following "sentence" as an example of how a speaker with zero knowledge of a language can use word for word translation and still be able to get a clear understanding of what the "sentence" means.

"Boeing. has. taken. of. delay. in. manufacture. of. sound. plane. of. line. of. news. generation."

I would like to know how native English speakers would interpret the meaning of this "sentence"."

xtremelingo wrote:

As we can see, Apparition has accurately conveyed a pretty decent meaning from this.


Apparition, like you, had seen the original French sentence, and a translation of the sentence into English. A valid test requires replicating the condition of a learner who did not understand the French sentence and had transcoded it into English words.

xtremelingo wrote:

The goal is to get beginners reading content sooner.


In most cases it is better to get beginners speaking sooner, and in my experience this is also what most beginners want. Beginners can begin speaking almost immediately using comprehensible input and directed output techniques. Reading is best begun when the language learner has already acquired some of the language.



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frenkeld
Diglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5853 days ago

2042 posts - 2719 votes 
Speaks: Russian*, English
Studies: German

 
 Message 108 of 167
12 October 2007 at 12:29pm | IP Logged 
xtremelingo wrote:
Many of engineers (including myself) that are pioneers in the technology of VoIP, when we first designed this technology, we considered many possible uses, and the possibility of language-learning far before the linguists even woke up and thought about this.


Well, in this particular case, VoIP is another way to talk, and the role of conversing with the natives in learning a language had been well-understood before humans started wearing clothes, so it won't impact research on language-learning.

That's not to say technology hasn't had an impact. The most important modern language-learning technology is probably online shopping, followed by sound recording technologies (cassettes, CD's, etc). Pop-up electronic dictionaries, electronic flashcard programs, and the like, are nice, but certainly not as critical as the preceding items. As far as language-learning software programs go, aside from being sometimes useful collections of recordings, they are toys.

So far, technology has not proven to be more than the sum of its parts when it comes to language-learning - organic brains have annoying limitations that are pretty hard to overcome, so intelligently conducted research from preceding decades should be just as valid today.


Edited by frenkeld on 12 October 2007 at 12:40pm

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mcjon77
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5521 days ago

193 posts - 248 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Egyptian), French

 
 Message 109 of 167
12 October 2007 at 7:15pm | IP Logged 
It seems as if people are debating the merits of flashcards and memorizing vocabulary as a stand alone method of language learning. It is not as if a person can't memorize vocabulary AND read texts in the original language.

I personally haven't bothered using the flashcard method listed, mainly because I already have a good (For Me) method of studying vocabulary flashcards (50 a day). However, my studying flashcards doesn't stop me from reading and learning words in context. It merely is another tool that I can use.

It takes me 20 minutes to make 50 flashcards. I only put one word on each flashcard. Throughout the day I may have 3 or 4 sets of 50 flashcards in my pocket or in my backpack. Whenever I have a free moment, I use my flashcards. I would bet that I probably study them up to an hour a day, but never longer than 10 minutes at a time. Because I am using all of these 'hidden moments' as Barry Farber called them, I am able to utilize time that would be wasted otherwise.

Sometimes I translate English->Foreign Language, Sometimes I translate Foreign Language -> English. My favorite is using the foreign language word in a sentence and having a mini-conversation with my set of flashcards. It really cements the words into my memory. None of this makes me incapable of learning and remembering idiomatic language when I encounter it.
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Linguamor
Decaglot
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5528 days ago

469 posts - 599 votes 
Speaks: English*, German, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, Danish, French, Norwegian, Portuguese, Dutch

 
 Message 110 of 167
13 October 2007 at 12:02am | IP Logged 
mcjon77 wrote:
It seems as if people are debating the merits of flashcards and memorizing vocabulary as a stand alone method of language learning.


Not as a stand alone method of language learning, but as a specific technique. When evaluating the merits of a technique it is necessary to look at it in isolation from other techniques, otherwise it is impossible to determine which results can be attributed to the technique being investigated and which results are attributable to some other technique.

2 persons have voted this message useful



mcjon77
Senior Member
United States
Joined 5521 days ago

193 posts - 248 votes 
Speaks: English*
Studies: Spanish, Arabic (Egyptian), French

 
 Message 111 of 167
13 October 2007 at 12:41am | IP Logged 
Linguamor wrote:
mcjon77 wrote:
It seems as if people are debating the merits of flashcards and memorizing vocabulary as a stand alone method of language learning.


Not as a stand alone method of language learning, but as a specific technique. When evaluating the merits of a technique it is necessary to look at it in isolation from other techniques, otherwise it is impossible to determine which results can be attributed to the technique being investigated and which results are attributable to some other technique.

To do that, we must first define what are the objectives we are trying to achieve with this specific technique. For instance, when I use flash cards for vocabulary words MY primary objective is to increase the size of my vocabulary so that I may be able to more accurately express myself. e.g. I really like cheese, so it may be valuable to know what the word cheese is so that I can ask my waitress if she has any dishes with cheese. Also I want to increase the number of words that I understand when spoken to me, although this MUST be augmented with hearing lots of actual conversation.

Edited by mcjon77 on 13 October 2007 at 12:43am

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xtremelingo
Trilingual Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5197 days ago

398 posts - 515 votes 
Speaks: English*, Hindi*, Punjabi*
Studies: German, French, Arabic (Written)

 
 Message 112 of 167
13 October 2007 at 1:37am | IP Logged 
Edwin,

Quote:

I actually did some research and published a paper for my master thesis many years ago. But unfortunately, it is not related to this method. In fact, it is totally unrelated to language learning.


First, it is presumptuous for you to assume that these theses have nothing to do with language-learning, when you have not even read it yourself. My point to mention it was to provide a bit of empirical evidence that I hold research to very high standards, and I do scientifically approach all methods that I discuss here. Research is my livelihood and the way I put food on my table. Feedback (thank you Apparition) is also important to me, because in order for me to test, improve and refine methods I must have a sample of people (data) in order to make any determinant conclusion from. I am offering you the chance to see the level of work I have completed, in order for you to understand I've held my reputation and my work to very high standards in the past.

Quote:

Yes, trust me! No need to argue with me now. Try it out first before you comment on my method. In fact, I won't be replying to anyone who has not tried my method.


Wow, Edwin the Drama Queen. You must be easy to get along with at home.

I am replying to you am I not?

As for what University, I read somewhere that you had attended Ryerson University, I may be wrong. But I have work published there, the University of Toronto and several other Universities.

If you are interested, I can direct you to where you can find this, because you appear to have low-expectations of people you don't know, and on this forum and truly underestimate and make ignorant presumptions about their backgrounds.


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