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Learning Languages Simultaneously | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| garyb Triglot Senior Member ScotlandRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5208 days ago 1468 posts - 2413 votes  Speaks: English*, Italian, French Studies: Spanish | Message 18 of 77 21 March 2012 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Fitting in two (one advanced, one beginner) is enough of a struggle for me and I barely manage to keep up, so I do wonder when I see all the logs of people studying more than that. I certainly have the motivation and desire, but the time simply isn't there. But then my life's quite busy by any standard since I work full time and go out most evenings. If I went out less then I could easily devote several hours per day to languages, but my social life's more important to me :)
I can certainly understand the impatience aspect, but I remind myself that the time I'm investing in one language is also an investment into others, both in terms of learning how to learn more efficiently and of the "discount" from knowing a similar language (luckily, most of the languages that interest me are from the same family). I was dying to start Italian for over a year, but I resisted until my French reached a good level, and I'm glad I did because that made Italian so much easier for me and I knew a lot more about language learning in general. So even though I wasn't studying Italian for that time, the time I put into French was effectively also time spent towards Italian. Perhaps this isn't so relevant to accomplished polyglots who already know a good few languages, but for someone less experienced I really think focusing on one up to a good level before adding in others is the way to go, since once you've learned one language to a good level you have a better idea of how to do it again. 6 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| s0fist Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 5047 days ago 260 posts - 445 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: Sign Language, German, Spanish, French | Message 19 of 77 22 March 2012 at 3:37am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I realize my metaphor is not perfect, and I just thought I'd clarify that I was mostly talking about the similarities between chess and language learning, not just chess per se. Yes, as long as we're speaking about chess, I realize GMs don't play simultaneous exhibition matches against opponents with similar elos, most likely those opponents are at least a 2-4 hundred points below their level, if not more. I also think that generally the exhibitor doesn't learn much "about the game itself" from his simultaneous opponents -- this is both in regards to chess and language learning in general. But the exhibitor can and does pickup on the opponents tendencies and styles -- this person is aggressive gambit player, this one is trying for a strategic positional advantage, and so on -- even if only for the duration of the exhibition match. And in the spirit of my previous metaphors, people with a dozen languages under their belt, can play exhibition matches (dabble in multiple languages) and come out having learned various tidbits about the languages -- the general sound of the language, various basics about grammar constructs, peculiarities about this or that part of the language, even if they never touch that language again. That's what I meant by "wiser about each player's style". I hope that clarifies what I meant, if not, well metaphors can only take us so far.
And additionally, speaking strictly of chess now, I'd like to point out that (to me) exhibition matches are not just a display of the GM's superiority over his less learned opponents. It might be a reasonable statement for the exhibitor him/herself, and if you are an IM/GM or revolve in that circle you probably know more than I. At the very least, his opponents might come out with new ideas about chess, tourny play, etc and their own style. Breaking my metaphor, this forum is an example of experienced LLs teaching novices. But then again I'm not worthy enough to play chess against GMs, even if it's only to be made fun of and be a target for their superiority. The spectators may also learn various things in the process and *gasp* they might even just enjoy the process. Oh and btw some places, parks, faires, have been known to provide an opponent for simultaneous exhibition matches for nominal $1-5 entry fees, and those guys occasionally loose. My point being that they're not likely to be top notch chess players, but not just top notch players play exhibition matches and not just for display purposes. In fact in NYC I sometimes see hustlers (or maybe they're starving GMs?) playing people on park benches, not for a display of their superior skills, but for money (ex. Union square, Central park, some other places probably). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| geoffw Triglot Senior Member United States Joined 4689 days ago 1134 posts - 1865 votes Speaks: English*, German, Yiddish Studies: Modern Hebrew, French, Dutch, Italian, Russian | Message 20 of 77 22 March 2012 at 4:02am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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When I traveled to Russia with a student group, our chaperones told us to watch out for two things: 1) don't drink
the water, and 2) don't play chess with the Russians. I guess arguing a chess metaphor with a Russian-speaker is dangerously similar. I'm not an IM/GM by any means, just someone who used to play tournaments and was once better than most average people who aren't Russian. :-) I've been on both sides of the simul: playing against at most 4 boards, all of them very weak, and as one of a few dozen boards against an IM (pretty sure he was called Ilya, fwiw)--my great accomplishment there was being one of the last games finished and one of the few that made him think. I suppose I had better admit that simuls are not limited to the kind that I experienced. As one clearly knowledgable when it comes to chess, I trust you'll be understanding of my instinct to jealously guard the game from any hint of cheap exploitation...I think I'm a little jaded from seeing so many TV shows and movies with the same old trope, where two supposedly decent chess players are deep in thought, when the overconfident and boastful underdog is suddenly and brilliantly defeated by the surprise mate in 1... 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Kronos Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 5262 days ago 186 posts - 452 votes Speaks: German*, English | Message 22 of 77 19 May 2013 at 9:54am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Both. I always wanted to know French, Italian and Spanish, and recently got captivated by the magnificence of Portuguese. Once I had made up my mind to seriously learn those languages, the mere thought of having to postpone any of them for another couple of years felt like a torture. Eventually I told myself: why not learn them in parallel? There is no need to become proficient in one of them first. And they are all Romance languages and closely related to each other. The journey itself is already a fascinating experience, and this is largely due to the material. Studying four languages at the same time either through grammar or a communicative approach would give me headaches, so I opted for Assimil, slowly growing into those languages so to say. The oldest generation of their manuals ("without Toil") is almost ideally suited for comparative study of just those four languages. They are comprehensive, highly entertaining and a bit quirky, I am fond of the accompanying audio material, and all four courses were written by the same author and are similarly structured. If you meet a new grammatical phenomenon in Lesson 20 of the Portuguese course you are likely to meet the equivalent of it in Lesson 18, 20 or 23 in the Italian or French or Spanish course as well. They proceed at approximately the same pace.
On an average day I will go through one new lesson, or spend half an hour, in each language, that is: two hours a day. This is not much, but even so finishing all four courses including a thorough review or second run should not take more than a year, probably less. At that point I will at least have a good foundation. Afterwards there is plenty of other work to be done, like straightening out the grammar and any loose points, not to speak of getting deeper into more words, more idioms and samples of native content. I am not in a hurry and have no problems to go on like this for years altogether, if necessary. I hope that eventually I will be able to put in more time though.
No advice from me, but I would like to share an interesting video. It is by an American based in Puerto Rico, a high school teacher. A couple of months ago he embarked on a minor challenge, studying three related Scandinavian languages at once, mainly in order to find out if the overlap would be more of a help or a hindrance. It turned out to be a success. There are samples of his accomplishment in all three languages on his channel, and considering that he spent less than an hour a day the results so far are quite impressive. He has also made some videos discussing the why and how - the rationale and process - behind it, mostly in English. The best of those however is this one in Spanish: Análisis del reto de idiomas escandinavos This guy is really smart and has something calm and confident about him that I find encouraging and worth emulating. It also shows that it is possible to learn multiple languages, even related ones, without getting stressed out or abandoning common sense. Edited by Kronos on 19 May 2013 at 1:11pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4848 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 23 of 77 19 May 2013 at 2:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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As the OPer probably knows already, I study two languages simultaneously: Japanese and Portuguese. I agree that studying one language for multiple hours a day is most effective - if you can do it. But I can't. With my current study schedule, I do one hour of intensive Japanese study a day. If I dropped Portuguese, I doubt that I could take the time I use for Portuguese and study Japanese for two hours. I would burn out, like I've done before. So, why not add an extra language? Besides, Portuguese is a nice, fun diversion from Japanese.
I used to study each language every other day, but I've found this to be somewhat confusing to my brain, so I've switched to studying both languages every day, like other people have posted here. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| leosmith Senior Member United States Joined 6551 days ago 2365 posts - 3804 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Tagalog | Message 24 of 77 20 May 2013 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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My theories of multi-language learning have changed significantly over the years. The first time I had to think about your specific questions was in 2005 when I dropped Thai to study Japanese. These were my 4th and 5th languages. Back then, I wasn’t really concerned about maintaining. I thought if I wanted to use my other languages again, I’d worry about it at that time. Didn’t think it would be good to study 2 languages, because of time concerns.
A couple years later I went to Thailand, and was shocked at how bad my Thai was. Luckily, I had a long vacation, so I worked hard and got back close to where I was before by the end of it. After that, I decided to maintain my Thai. Then I became a believer of another theory regarding multi-language learning. I thought time on task was by far the most important factor. This was partially due to the fact that no matter how intensely I studied, things needed time to sink in. And partially due to this FSI 50 Years of Lessons Learned article. And partially due to the fact that if I ignored a language for a while, after getting reacquainted, I would be even better. My theory was that as long as I got a minimal amount of steady exposure, my mind would sort things out, and I would reach high levels in my languages after several years without having to devote too much energy. It took a long time for me to realize that this was not true, mostly because the theory calls for many years for things to happen. Well, I finally found out they didn’t happen. As an aside, this is where I believe many of the multi-language learners on this forum are now. Next came my Learning in Spurtsrevelation. This got me actively learning all my languages for at least a few weeks out of the year. It was a big improvement, and although I’ve learned a lot since then, I still use it today. It was as much a lifestyle change as anything else. Then came a time of great soul searching. I really wanted to know more languages, but what I was doing currently just wouldn’t allow it. I was pretty certain many others had been stopped at the 5-10 language mark because of this time management issue. It’s very rare for someone to speak more than 10 languages at a high level, I noticed; even people making such claims on this forum are rare. After much experimenting, I came to the conclusion that B1/B2 requires 30 min/day to maintain my level. Then I realized my only C1 language, Spanish, wasn’t like that. I’ve never had to maintain it. I started asking around, and found that this was the consensus. So I now believe that if you want to learn many languages to a high level and keep them there, the most efficient path is to learn one at a time to C1/C2. After that, no more studying, just doing the things that you learned the languages for in the first place. Of course this doesn’t apply if your goal is merely to study, don’t care about your level, etc. But I would definitely advise learners to learn a language to C1/C2 before adding another. There are so many advantages, and so few disadvantages, of learning a single language over multiple languages. That being said, I haven’t dropped all my languages to focus on one. Even though I’m sure I’ve found the answer, I just have this fear of losing what I’ve gained. Right now I can converse very comfortably in 7 languages; it’s a great feeling just to surf shared talk and fool native speakers for a few minutes, and speak to other multi-learners in several languages. I had a brief period last summer where I had lots of free time and almost made a video. I told myself that I would drop 4 languages after that, and focus on Russian. But I chickened out. That has to change. Give me courage, mon. 7 persons have voted this message useful |
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