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Tarvos - TAC 2015 Pushkin/Scan | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes  Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 321 of 1511 01 November 2012 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | ||
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SV: En bra nyhet! Troligen avsluter jag idag med FSI. Jag har gjort 16e lektionen igår
och skrivit ordlista, men jag behöver ändå göra repetitionsrundan för den (stora) ordlistan. Sen ska det finnas ett slut och kan jag koncentrera mig på privatlektionen och prata svenska. РУ: На русском ещё продолжу с учением, но у меня осталось делать только и один урок. Я надеюсь, что я закончу последний урок во воскресенье, и потом я смогу концентрировать на практике - говорить по-русский в мире. Читать, писать, слушать, всё этого, все хорошие дела, которaм возможно, когда работаешь хорошо и дизциплина есть. К тому же, моя препадавательнива шведского языка - русская, и она мне дала упражнения перевода. Но - я должен был переводить от русского на шведском. Однако, я сначало не понимал, что мне было надо только переводить несколько фраз, а не весь текст. Но я переводил всё на шведском, несмотря на не понимая каждое слово. FR: Et comme d'habitude, je continue mes études de français, malgré que ça ne progresse pas si rapide que mes autres langues. Eh bien, ce n'est pas mon focus non plus, mais les petits pièges que je fais chaque mois sont encourageants et je me dis constamment que "si tu t'exercices, ça viendra" et bien c'est visible quelque part (notamment dans ma compréhension orale). Une de mes collègues à l'AF m'a promis qu'elle apportera un livre de Poirot que je peux emprunter - c'est pour contrôler mon niveau de compréhension écrite (encore, malgré que c'est un champ que je maîtrise déjà mieux que les autres). Finalement, le fait que je finis mon livre de texte pour le suédois aujourd'hui signifie que je commence avec le breton DEMAIN. Donc, si vous avez envie de voir comment l'apprentissage d'une langue rare et régionale fonctionne, je vous conseille de regarder ici une fois par semaine - car je vais mettre à jour mon journal, à partir de demain, avec des infos, conseils, petits faits grammaticales, etc. concernant le breton. D'abord les infos seront présentés en français, mais après quelques mois j'espère d'avoir obtenu une connaissance suffisante pour écrire ici en breton aussi. Edited by tarvos on 01 November 2012 at 1:35pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 322 of 1511 02 November 2012 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | ||
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Premier jour de l'apprentissage du breton!
Dans ma quête de devenir brittophone, j'ai commencé avec le cours "Le Breton sans peine" de Divi Kervella (c'est l'Assimil). Je vais l'apprendre dans le cadre de l'expériment Assimil qui se déroule ici maintenant, mais j'ai voulu l'apprendre depuis longtemps (plus précisément, depuis que j'ai visité le département de Finistère en Bretagne). Pour ceux qui ne connaissent pas le breton; c'est une langue celtique, apparentée au gallois et au cornique, et l'irlandais et l'écossais sont des cousins plus distants. C'est le seul langage celtique qui est parlé au continent - tous les autres sont trouvés aux îles Britanniques (d'où vient le nom breton aussi). Le breton est une langue menacée - le gouvernement français refuse de reconnaître la langue comme une langue officielle de la France, et les brittophones ont été opprimés pendant des siècles. Maintenant, la formation en breton existe dans les départements de l'Ouest, mais malheureusement le breton n'est pas très populaire (et pratiquement tout le monde parle le français aussi couramment), donc on écoute trop de français et moins de breton (cependant, les signes routières sont bilingues). La langue est plus vive maintenant qu'au passé, et les bretons sont fiers et revitalisent constamment la langue - il y a du radio, de la presse brittophone - mais malheureusement le gouvernement de la France est opposé à reconnaître le breton (comme l'occitan, l'alsacien, etc.) comme une langue officielle de la France. Mais malgré ces problèmes, la langue est vive et actuellement parlée, et par exemple à Brest on trouve des signes, des livres, et des produits bretonnes partout (et si on voyage à la campagne, vous trouverez plus de souvenirs dans les petits magasins). Bien que je suis néerlandais, je soutiens la revitalisation de la langue bretonne et je trouve que c'est très important d'apprendre aussi des langues régionaux. Le breton possède une culture et une histoire unique dans le monde et ça serait plus que dommage quand une langue d'une telle stature disparaîtrait. Peut-être, si un petit néerlandais est capable d'apprendre une langue celtique, ça renforce l'idée que les français en sont capables aussi. Degemer mat e Penn-ar-Bed! Trugarez! (Traduction: Bienvenue au bout du monde! Merci!) (Translation: Welcome to the end of the world! Thank you!) PS. Quand j'ai complété plus de leçons, je vais vous donner des petits remarques grammaticales concernant la langue. Le breton connait des principes spéciaux qui appartiennent à tous les langues celtiques (comme les mutations des consonnes initiaux), mais comme j'ai seulement fini le premier leçon, ça devra attendre un peu. Edited by tarvos on 03 November 2012 at 9:11am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 323 of 1511 03 November 2012 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | ||
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Le Breton sans peine
I have completed the second lesson of the course entirely (I use lesson-based wordlists to help me remember the words as an aid instead of putting them into Anki - the repetition round is done the next day BEFORE tackling the new material to reinforce the old words and be able to combine them with the new one). Pronunciation and Orthography So far, I have been seeing a few things: the orthography of Breton (given it's the KLT one they're using, I guess, and not the Vannetais dialect) is very regular and most words are written phonetically, with a few exceptions - final consonants are usually devoiced unless there's a liaison with a vowel afterwards, and the letter v at the end of a word is not pronounced v but "o", hence "hiziv" sounds like hizyo as the i iotates and turns into the French (and English) y sound. Luckily, there are no really tough phonemes. Breton has more vowel sounds than the 5 cardinal ones, though: a/e/i/o/u exist, and are usually (with the exception of e and o) what they are in French. E is usually é, but is in some cases è (but that's more usually written ae). O is normally an o, but can be pronounced almost as "oo" if the vowel is stressed. In that case it sounds a bit like Swedish long o. French ou is the same in Breton. G is always the g of garcon (never the g of dommage). R used to be a trilled r (and some people use it) but there is nothing wrong with using a Parisian r if that is what you prefer. The course tends to use that r. I like rolled r's, but probably this is a Frenchism. There is an opposition in the orthography between soft and hard l (a wet "l") which you could probably render a bit like in Russian. C'h (a digraph) can be either the sound "ch" as in Scottish loch, or its voiced counterpart as in Dutch "gaan". They are hard to distinguish for most people however. Breton also has nasal vowels and notes nasality by adding an ñ after the vowel. Thus emañ is pronounced with the ending of "en". You can nasalise all vowels - however, a nasal i and u are uncommon and more usually just pronounced i and u like in French. Some Grammatical Notes Breton knows the concept of articles, however, articles do not in any way determine gender. The shape of the article is uniquely dependent on the letter of the noun (!) that follows (adjectives go after the noun). Thus you have ar mor (the sea), but an ti (the house). Breton also distinguishes between definite and indefinite articles - however, there is no equivalent of French "des" and you can simply suffice by putting the noun in the plural if you want to render an indefinite plural. Third - there are two ways to conjugate the verb for to be (though I have only seen one) and a phrasing using a verb particle and the verb "to do" conjugated plus the infinitive seems to be a common phrasing. (i.e. Komz a rit brezhoneg? is literally speak do you Breton?) Yes and no do not exist. You respond to a question by making the verb of the question in the affirmative mood, so to the above question the natural response would be: "Komz a ran brezhoneg." (I do be speaking Breton). Person and number of the verb is indicated through conjugation. Personal pronouns are only used for emphasis. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 324 of 1511 05 November 2012 at 12:42am | IP Logged | ||
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РУ: Я закончил книгу <<Коллоквиал>>. Сделав все уроки, я сейчас стараюсь найти
книги, чтобы читать. Кроме того, я много буду говорить и писать по-русски здесь Повторение - мать учения. Я не верю в мысл, что чтобы говорить лучше, надо учить грамматику, а потом говорить - лучше бы было, говорить много, и пока говоришь, узнать какие ошибки обычные. У меня уже книга <<Тамань>> есть. Я уже прочитал до пятой главы. SV: Jag har gjort ingenting på sista tiden. Jag vet, som jag bör läsa mer, men jag har andra prioriteter och det finns andra språk att lära. Jag ska förtsätta med privatlektioner, den nästa lektionen kommer att äga rum på onsdag. Concerning Breton Grammar I have done lesson 3 of Le Breton sans peine. Additionally, I have been looking for information on a particular construction which is common in Breton, namely a present tense using the auxiliary to do. It turns out, that it has something to do with the syntax used in the phrase. You see, Breton is very particular about syntax in a certain way - the most important part of the sentence comes first. This means that the verb conjugation is different if it is not the verb that is being stressed. The example sentence I gave in the previous post concerned the sentence "Komz a rit brezhoneg" (literally "Speak do you Breton?") (where a is a verbal particle that is always present in this conjugation). But what this means is that the fact we are talking about speaking (i.e. komz) is important. Usually, the verb is in second position in the sentence. For example, if I say "Brav eo an amzer hiziv" (Beautiful is the weather today) the verb "eo" (which is one of the two conjugations of to be in Breton) is in second place. This is because we want to stress that the weather is beautiful (and thus the verb moves place). Now this has a whole host of implications, none of which I have studied in detail and I can't actually conjugate a verb in the regular present tense. My point is, that if a verb is not being stressed, it gains a different form. Note also that the verb is actually in second position, because the first part of the sentence "komz" is actually not as much an infinitive as it is a verbal noun. Assimil does call it an infinitive, so I am not sure what exactly it is technically (and so does my grammar) but the point is, that it is not conjugated. The verb is still in second position, it's just being occupied by the auxiliary form of ober. This element of "putting what's important first" leads, however, to a syntax which is fairly fluid because you can express stress on pretty much everything you want by smashing it up front. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 5054 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 325 of 1511 05 November 2012 at 8:36am | IP Logged | ||
Согласен, в такой мысл верить не надо. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 326 of 1511 05 November 2012 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | ||
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Le Breton sans peine (pevare kentel)
Having seen four lessons of Breton now it is time to comment a bit on the book itself. It adheres very clearly to the Assimil structure - assimilate, develop the vocabulary bit by bit (repeating important words such as the conjugations of to be) and has the reassuring remark that "L'étude du breton a peut-être l'air difficile au départ. Mais en fait, une fois apprises les quelques règles de base assez différentes de celles du français, ce n'est pas bien compliqué. Sachez qu'il n'existe pour ainsi dire pas de verbes irréguliers, à part le verbe être et le verbe avoir. Voilà qui devrait vous rassurer pour l'avenir". In short, it's everything you can expect of an Assimil course in the beginning, given that the topics have been focused on clearly Breton things (situating the sea and the post office, asking about the weather and being able to speak Breton, going swimming and finding yourself a nice creperie). I cannot say I am disappointed, but for one thing - the recordings don't come in mp3 format, which is the only shame because it means I can't download them to my laptop and have to be at home to listen to them. Some Fun Facts About Breton Grammar Continuing in the series of "why Breton is simple, but very different from what we are used to" - partitives. You see, a partitive in Breton doesn't require a preposition (like in French). Nope - you just plunk the noun after the noun that is being modified - "ar krampouezh gwinizh" (les crêpes du froment). Simple, effective. Pretty much like in English, only you now put the noun after the noun. Another fun fact is that the verb "to be" has two conjugations and it depends on what you are saying which conjugation you use. There are some more exceptions to the verb "bezañ" (one of only two really irregular verbs), but here's the most important thing - to be is different if it's a state (he is happy) or if it's a description of location (he is at the beach). The first is "Laouen eo" and the second is "En aod emañ". Note also that prepositions can be fused with articles like in French - the preposition for place is "e", so e Breizh (in Brittany) but er mor (in the sea). 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 327 of 1511 07 November 2012 at 8:15pm | IP Logged | ||
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J'ai trouvé un fil dans Unilang au sujet de Breton. Peut-être tu le trouveras utile.
1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4705 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 328 of 1511 07 November 2012 at 8:41pm | IP Logged | ||
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Ah, c'est très gentil, merci beaucoup! J'ai feuilleté le fil un peu, mais il me parait
que le plupart des messages soient à un niveau assez élevés - car j'ai juste fini cinq leçons dans Le Breton. En fait, ça me rappelle que je devrais commencer la sixième leçon (c'hwec'hvet kentel). Néanmoins, je crois que ce fil contiendra des choses à apprendre plus tard, donc je vais le sauvegarder quelque part. Edited by tarvos on 07 November 2012 at 8:43pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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