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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 3785 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes  Speaks: Spanish | Message 105 of 119 04 January 2014 at 12:42am | IP Logged | |||||
I honestly didn't read the study word for word. However, I'm pretty sure that it was just 50-57% word comprehension. That obviously doesn't get you very far in terms of understanding details. Your comprehension of the total message will be piss-poor if you understand half of the words. Edit: I couldn't find the exact details in the study pdf. It is probably word comprehension since you can't really define global understanding, I believe. I saw a wiklipedia discussion about mutual intelligibility and some people wrote, "I've been STUDYING Spanish for three months and I am understand Portuguese really well/easily." The issue, again, is that beginners think they know a lot but they really don't know much at all. With three months of "low-key" studying you won't understand much of a language, let alone a relatively similar one that is still a distinct language. Edited by culebrilla on 04 January 2014 at 12:47am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| 1e4e6 Octoglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4078 days ago 1013 posts - 1588 votes Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan | Message 106 of 119 04 January 2014 at 2:24am | IP Logged | |||||
That is not the issue, the issue is that it is strange to be at A2 Spanish at most, go to Portugal or Brasil on holiday, speak broken Spanish either assuming that the Lusophone interlocutor can understand Spanish completely, or assume that because Spanish has more political influence and more speakers, that Lusophones all somehow learn Spanish to an advanced level and not vice versa. English is an international language now, and not just because the USA have so much political power that they can somehow force all countries by decree to learn it, but the combined forces of the big five, viz. UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the old 57 Empire and Commonwealth countries, as well as the science, technology, business, etc. in thecombination of all Anglophone countries, in addition to polylingual institutions in Europe. It can, just like Latin, cease to be used and diverge into various completely separate languages like how Latin diverged into Spanish, Portuguese, French, Romanian, Catalan, Galician, Valencian, Italian, etc. I personally prefer that English did not become so international and was simply a random language used in England, I prefer the linguistic content of Old English with its five cases, three genders, the [dual form, etc., but that is a different topic. Broken Spanish and English are not required to communicate in the Lusophone world, i.e. no communication and communication via English or Broken Spanish are not the only choices. There lays, of course, the probably more principled option of simply learning some Portuguese before travelling there. It would be akin to a non-native German speaker who is A2 at most to attempt to speak German in the Netherlands, because it is "mutually intelligble", or speaking French whilst on holiday in Italy since it "looks similar on paper". A Lusophone in Portugal could simply say, <<Não falo inglês, nem espanhol>>. It is his or her country, and cannot be excepted to know either language despite the fact that English and Spanish hold higher political influence and more speakers. Edited by 1e4e6 on 04 January 2014 at 3:26am 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6385 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 107 of 119 04 January 2014 at 3:02am | IP Logged | |||||
Your experience doesn't turn the stereotype into a universal truth. I haven't even heard about the French agreeing to use their good English only after you hurt their ears with your French. I would assume that those who actually speak good English don't mind using it? BTW I always thought it was pointless how guidebooks teach you to say "do you speak English/French/German/Russian" in the local language. If the person speaks it, they will understand the question in that language. Just acknowledge that you don't have a superiority complex (especially with English), for example say you are sorry you don't speak the person's native language. A demonstration is not necessary, and if you happen to pronounce a pre-learned phrase well it will be confusing that you know a bit of the language but don't want to speak it. (I think this might have happened to your friend. You say his overall level was poor, but being in the country he got to hear the correct pronunciation a lot, and if he asked the same question many times he probably learned to pronounce it well too. Also, it's often good to explicitly say "I don't know how to say this in language X".) Edited by Serpent on 04 January 2014 at 3:21am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6385 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 108 of 119 04 January 2014 at 3:20am | IP Logged | |||||
Edited by Serpent on 04 January 2014 at 3:24am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Gemuse Senior Member Germany Joined 3870 days ago 818 posts - 1189 votes Speaks: English Studies: German | Message 109 of 119 04 January 2014 at 3:58am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes, its not a universal truth, but I get to hear such anecdotes a lot. Its not just English. I heard another anecdote from a German expat who had been communicating in broken French with his neighbor, only to discover months later that the neighbor spoke perfect German, but did not want to speak in German.
I think it is the polite thing to do. Like Cristianoo gets bent that people speak to her in Spanish, and wants people to ask her before before they say anything in Spanish. Edited by Gemuse on 04 January 2014 at 3:59am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5122 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 110 of 119 04 January 2014 at 8:30am | IP Logged | |||||
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I think a large proportion of people who have spoken broken French in France have had negative
experiences. That is not racism. That is just stating the facts. When I started out learning French I experienced two reactions from them. In the beginning when my French was bad, 98% of the people I met regarded me as garbage, and would not even make an effort to try and understand what I said. After I learned to speak fluent French I was treated like a queen. Nowadays when I go to France (mostly Paris) what irritates me the most is that I start out speaking French with people at a reception, a restaurant or a shop, but the second they see my name they go into English. This is mostly a Paris thing though, and probably due to the vast amounts of foreigners. In the rest of the country they are happy to just speak French with you. We have touched upon the attitude of the French many times, and at least when I was younger there was a vast difference between the French and any other nation I had encountered - with the possible exception of the English/Americans. Those were the only ones who expected you to be fluent in their language, and regarded you as an idiot if you were not. The difference of course being, that a lot of people do speak English, and significantly fewer speak French. As for using one language that you speak badly in order to communicate with someone who speaks a related language - well you do what you can. If I had a guy from China who spoke Swedish or Dutch, the chances of us being able to communicate in any way would be a lot higher if he used those languages than if he used Mandarin. Whenever I need to ommunicate with someone from a Slavic speaking country, I will try Russian if we have no other language in common. I know most young people do not speak Russian, and my Russian is still very weak, but for a Pole, if he had to chose between me speaking Norwegian or Russian, he would probably go for Russian. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 04 January 2014 at 8:45am 6 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 3785 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 111 of 119 04 January 2014 at 8:42am | IP Logged | |||||
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That's weird. I always thought of us Americans are being pretty welcoming compared to most others. We are definitely more superficial than a lot of other people, I've noticed. We will smile and ask how people are more than the Europeans I've met in Europe, for example.
Sucks that you were treated poorly when your French wasn't good. :( 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| culebrilla Senior Member United States Joined 3785 days ago 246 posts - 436 votes Speaks: Spanish | Message 112 of 119 04 January 2014 at 8:44am | IP Logged | |||||
No, but he was saying that he understood "almost everything." Don't know what you don't know. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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