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Sarnek’s Log - TAC ’15 (Rätsel, Sleipnir) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4004 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes  Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 97 of 176 28 January 2015 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | |||||
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This is very helpful and interesting indeed. Thank you a lot again.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Emme Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5136 days ago 980 posts - 1594 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German Studies: Russian, Swedish, French | Message 98 of 176 02 February 2015 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | |||||
Bra jobbat! Du skriver på svenska och på tyska: du är modig och flitig. Jag är säker att dina språkkunskaper kommer att bli bättre och bättre snabbt! Är den här boken som du måste träna ditt tyskt ordförråd med? Großes Übungsbuch Wortschatz. Varför avskyr du den? I saw on A****n marketplace that there are some fairly cheap copies available and since my focus this year will be on improving my German active vocabulary, which is full of gaps, I was wondering whether you’d like a study-buddy for that one specific textbook (unless of course you think the book is a total waste of money for me). I guess that if I order it now I could have it in a week or two at most. PS. I’m not comfortable correcting people in languages that aren’t my native Italian, but I’ve seen some recurring mistakes in your German and I wonder whether you’d like a pointer or whether you wrote your posts so quickly that they don’t reflect what you’ve already learnt but haven’t yet perfectly assimilated and made automatic. Let me know: if I can, I’m glad to help. Edited by Emme on 02 February 2015 at 3:47pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4004 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 99 of 176 02 February 2015 at 4:16pm | IP Logged | |||||
Ciao Emme. Yes that's the book. I don't hate the book in itself, I just hate the method of having to force words into my brain without or with very little context - from a list (!). For me, it's a very bitter pill to swallow. I can't see many problems with the book in itself, except maybe that there's no translation of the words, and some of them aren't even included in sentences. If this methods works for you, sure, go for it big time. But I'm probably not the best person who can advise buying such a book anyway. If you decide to buy it, I'll gladly be your study-buddy :D As for your PS. You (all of you) don't even have to ask something like that. I don't get offended by corrections (I don't know why any learner should), so please, do correct my work. (I could only see a missed dative case, so that's something to worry about - More in my next update...) Edited by Sarnek on 02 February 2015 at 4:17pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Emme Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5136 days ago 980 posts - 1594 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German Studies: Russian, Swedish, French | Message 100 of 176 02 February 2015 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I don’t like word lists per se but I hoped that since it’s called Übungsbuch it would offer exercises to help you memorize a rich vocabulary. Moreover, remember that I’m supposed to be (at least I used to be) at C1 in German and so I can usually understand practically any kind of text without much trouble. My weakness is that my active vocabulary is too poor and too shaky, so I’m desperately looking for a textbook that goes over a lot of words and themes systematically with the aim of having the words down pat at last. All this to say that my purpose is probably different from yours: you’re probably learning those words for the first time, whereas I need to get those words from the passive to the active vocabulary.
As I said I have a lot of gaps in my vocabulary, so even if the book starts off easy (A2), I might still find words I don’t know or that I’m not totally sure of (der/die/das, what preposition to use etc). Finally, I need to find a compelling reason to stay committed and I thought that working alongside someone else might keep me on the straight and narrow with no distraction until the job is done. I tend to lose focus when I study on my own: that’s where the idea of a study-buddy comes from. Do you have or do you plan to have a schedule to work through the Übungsbuch? I saw in the Hueber website that the book has 400 pages and I suppose you need to study it all by June/July or September at the latest. Does your teacher assign you chapters or are you on your own?
I know it’s a drag to learn a lot of vocabulary in a relatively short time, but I regret that I never worked on my Wortschatz intensely and systematically. I suspect that most of my insecurities in German stem from this failure, so I can only advise you to bite the bullet and really focus on the task at hand, no matter how soul-destroying it is.
Good that you’ve caught your missed cases. I’d really prefer if a native speaker confirms what I write, but I think that: mit eine Lehrers Hilfe = mit der Hilfe eines Lehrers aus ein Buch = aus einem Buch What I was referring to, though, is the fact that it’s not the first time that I’ve noticed in what you write that when you’ve got more than one verb in a sentence (ie. verb plus either auxiliary verb or modal verb) you often get the word order wrong, especially in Nebensätze. That’s why I was wondering whether you’ve already learned the word order in Nebensätze or if it’s something you still need to encounter properly. Ich denke, dass das eine große Hilfe wird sein, um mein Wortschatz zu erweitern. = Nebensatz Ich denke, dass das eine große Hilfe sein wird, um mein Wortschatz zu erweitern. Dieses Buch ist besser geeignet für Klassen, und mit eine Lehrers Hilfe, ein gutes Instrument sein kann. = koordinierte Hauptsätzen Dieses Buch ist besser geeignet für Klassen, und […] [es] kann ein gutes Instrument sein. General rule (where V1 is the conjugated verb i.e. either the main verb or the modal/auxiliary verb): HAUPTSATZ: S V1 (DAT Te Ka Mo Lo AKK) V2. Die Sonne scheint. Es hat geregnet. Ich möchte (V1) während der Mittagspause (Te) in der Kantine (Lo) ein Brötchen (AKK) essen (V2). NEBENSATZ: Konjunktion S (DAT Te Ka Mo Lo AKK) V2 V1. Ich weiß, dass er schon letztes Sommer (Te) seinen neuen Roman (AKK) veröffentlichen (V2) wollte (V1), aber das Buch ist erst vor einem Monat erschienen. Native German speakers, I'd love to hear your input! Word order in the Hauptsatz. Verb position in the Hauptsatz and in the Nebensatz. Word order in Nebensätze (on page 3 there are a few advanced cases with up to 4 verbs in the Satzende Position: I don’t suppose you’ve already met them.) Edited by Emme on 02 February 2015 at 11:54pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| daegga Tetraglot Senior Member Austria lang-8.com/553301 Joined 4310 days ago 1076 posts - 1792 votes Speaks: German*, EnglishC2, Swedish, Norwegian Studies: Danish, French, Finnish, Icelandic | Message 101 of 176 03 February 2015 at 12:27am | IP Logged | |||||
Your corrections look good Emme, but for clarity's sake I chime in on 1 point.
1. No comma before "und". It is generally allowed but discouraged, but in a reduced form (subject of the second clause resides in the first clause) it shouldn't be used. 2. if you include all the information (mit der Hilfe eines Lehrers), the "es" comes after the verb: Dieses Buch ist besser geeignet für Klassen(,) und mit der Hilfe eines Lehrers kann es ein gutes Instrument sein. Or without "es": Dieses Buch ist besser geeignet für Klassen und kann mit Hilfe eines Lehrers ein gutes Instrument sein. Now don't ask me why I once used "mit der Hilfe" and onced "mit Hilfe". I guess some old casus (instrumentalis?) might be the reason. It just sounds better that way :). But there is obviously a slight difference in meaning. "mit der Hilfe" ~ "in combination with the help of", "mit Hilfe" ~ "through the help of" Edited by daegga on 03 February 2015 at 12:32am 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Emme Triglot Senior Member Italy Joined 5136 days ago 980 posts - 1594 votes Speaks: Italian*, English, German Studies: Russian, Swedish, French | Message 102 of 176 03 February 2015 at 10:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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Thanks daegga for checking my German!
The editing and formatting of my correction wasn’t very good, I’ll admit that. I did “copy and paste” and then just highlighted what I thought was most important i.e. the “und” that makes the sentences coordinated clauses. But yes, I totally missed the comma. My bad. I simplified the sentence and put the [es] in parenthesis to show that the subject was the same as in the first sentence and could/should be omitted. I should probably have been clearer. Anyway, good to see that my rusty German still remembers the syntax of more difficult sentences. Considering how little occasion I have for using them it’s a relief to know that by and large I still have them. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4004 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 103 of 176 03 February 2015 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | |||||
Oh sorry about that, I wasn't clear enough. Yes it does have excerices of course. By list I meant words that aren't included in a context (films, novels, articles, etc). Yes I need to study it for my exam, which I'll attempt in June/July. I don't have to study all the words, only those without the nut cracker symbol. Right now I'm studying for an history exam, so I'll get to it again next week (I've already done section A, B and C). And yes, I am on my own, and I don't have a particular work-plan. I just do like a section (there are 16) or a half section each day. So if something comes up I won't have to rush it by July. But like I said, I'll gladly be your study-buddy, just so as to help each other make it more enjoyable. Thanks a lot for the corrections, btw, both of you. Usually making mistakes doesn't bother me, it's just a natural part of the learning process, but these ones (the Nebensatz and the koordinierte Hauptsatz ones) kinda shocked me. I know (supposedly), how it works, but the truth is that this is just the natural result of the mistakes that I made with approaching this language. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Sarnek Diglot Senior Member Italy Joined 4004 days ago 308 posts - 414 votes Speaks: Italian*, English Studies: German, Swedish | Message 104 of 176 06 February 2015 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | |||||
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That my German needs some serious work, now that I have left it to rot and deteriorate for a good 6 months, it's pretty manifest and comes as no wonder. On the one hand, it is probably a good thing, as this would allow me to reconstruct it from the very foundations; on the other hand, it
will slow down my learning immensely. However, it surely is the best thing to do at the moment, for it is indeed much better to build a small wooden hut on solid rock rather than a gigantic fortress on mushy sand. I have also realised that I can’t study both languages at the same time and expect to be spending the same amount of energies on each. It just doesn’t work for me: once I start something I want to commit to it throughout. Therefore, my plan would now be to focus - say, 80% of my studying time - on a certain language on certain months, starting with German on February and March (hence why I have joined the 6WC). I have stated it multiple times and I will state it once again: I have made a number of mistakes with German. To begin with, I have relied too much on my professors’ methods. That is, studying grammar until (best-case scenario) one’s brain starts evaporating, learning declensions and words and articles by heart and so forth. No, thank you. I am not denying this could work with several people. It surely has. But not with me: not just because I would simply end up not remembering anything anyway, but mainly because it’s such a time- and energy-consuming method that it leaves me with neither the time nor the energies to actually use the language or enjoy a good film/book. On this point, I’ve noticed how German’s complex syntax (and its system in general), really makes it hard for me to understand a sentence. Even when I understand every word in it, it still is quite hard to “compose the puzzle” and “get the whole picture”. Whereas with Swedish, even if I don’t understand something it’s still very relaxing and pleasuring to follow. This is why I believe I need to break new ground in my method. I do not want to think, every time I open my mouth to utter some German (or even write it!), whether a certain preposition needs a certain case or whether the position of my verbs are right at all times, with the right form and tense and so on. This has to come natural to me, exactly like it comes natural to a native speaker of any given language. And I do believe that this is achievable, but I need to abandon the old ways and start using my own method, the same I used with Swedish. I will start from scratch all over again. Starting from tomorrow I will use Assimil again (and this time I’ll finish it), but at the same time I will integrate Assimil’s teachings with native materials every day: a couple of newspaper’s articles, a page or two of “Die Kameliendame”, youtube videos, radio and podcasts. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Okay so I have also watched a couple of series in Swedish in the last few weeks. I have finished ”Torka aldrig tårar utan handskar” (3 episodes x 55 min.) and it was really good. I may have shed a couple of tears by the end, but that’s classified :D. A lot of slang and informal language, which surprisingly wasn’t too hard to follow, but I had a few problems especially towards the end, when everything got a bit more dramatic and poetic all of a sudden. Also finished Jerusalem (4 episodes x 55 min.). The ending was quite disappointing (I remember it differently in the novel), but if we leave that out the rest was great. I love these old Swedish movies, the human interactions are so genuine and everything is made to the smallest detail. There’s also an interesting scene where a few Swedish people went to Jerusalem to an American colony and they could speak no English whatsoever. Quite hard to imagine nowadays. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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