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TAC 2010, Team K, Teango - GE SP SW RU | ||
Tags: Kanji | Turkish | Listening-Reading (L-R) | Swedish | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Russian | German | French | Spanish | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| M. Medialis Diglot TAC 2010 Winner Senior Member Sweden Joined 6355 days ago 397 posts - 508 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: Russian, Japanese, French | Message 57 of 185 17 March 2010 at 1:31am | IP Logged | |||||
Excellent description. It's so cool that you're trying the light-speed LR! I've had the ambition a few times, but haven't been able to do more than 2-3 hours/day. That's mostly because I always feel I must do something "more important" (which actually often is a pretty irrational thought in my case...), or because I simply don't have the time. When it comes to technical vocabulary, or anything I'm not familiar with, I often say to myself: "it's okay, the only reason you're not getting it is that you're focusing on learning from literature right now". But we definitely need to develop a strategy that enables us to conquer all aspects of the language we need to know. By the way. Now as you're starting to build up experience in LR, how would you explain the actual learning of new words. Do they just stick as soon as you hear them, or do you use your imagination to "put them at the right place"? Good luck with the light-speed phase. Never forget your back-up team who keeps an 目 on you, and eagerly waits to 見 your progress! EDIT: Ohhhh yeah! After 991 days at this forum, I just became a Senior Member. 100th post, heading for 1000. ;D Edited by M. Medialis on 17 March 2010 at 1:32am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5554 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 58 of 185 17 March 2010 at 8:00pm | IP Logged | |||||
Congratulations on becoming a senior member, you should celebrate with an extra couple of kanji and a Guinness (St Patrick's Day tonight) ;)
A good question. Whilst Listening-Reading Das Parfum today, I kept this in mind and wrote a few of my thoughts during the process. So how do I acquire new words? Well, it's more of a gradual passive process than anything else. I never "put" the words anywhere, instead they seem to come to me, and it's not always predictable either. I let it all wash over me like a lucky ol' gold prospector, and rejoice in the glistening nuggets remaining in the pan at the end of reading a section. More often than not these days, after I've initially read and listened to the German, and am reading the story in English without audio (my 2nd step), I see a word and think "oh yeah...peak...I think that was Gipfel...cool". Usually, however, I learn most of the words in my final 5th step, where I return to listening and reading the section in German to see how I've improved since my first initial reading, and this time use a clicker-counter to tally up any new unique words I now understand. This is a fundamental addition of mine, and every time I click a word it's like I really focus on it that much more, aware of progress, and feel much happier to find a new friend in the text. For about 5 minutes of audio I usually clock up 30-40 words, sometimes even more, and besides finding out what happens next in a great story, this is for me a very motivating aspect of my particular version of the L-R method. It's interesting to examine the process in a little more detail too. When you come across words that you didn't know before, you often recognise them but can't place the exact meaning (at least not in the time given whilst reading and listening at the same time without pauses). I tend to read and/or hear a word and sense that it's familiar, remembering something of its flavour and colour - you could say I have a sense of the word's contours in the dark. In essence I recognise parts or aspects of the word, be it semantics or sounds etc, and find myself unable to articulate at the exact moment where the ball is, the meaning so-to-say, but at least find myself standing in right ball park. After having L-R'd for a bit, I've discovered that it's much better to try and read slightly ahead of the audio, perhaps a phrase at a time if you can, and right to the end of the sentence is even better with languages like German that may have a very different ordering of clauses and many verbs on the end. On the second wave of "proper" L-R, when I've already visited the translation a couple of times, I then try to focus more on listening than reading, and if possible, try to predict what the narrator will say next and shadow along in my head. When you get this down right occasionally, it feels very rewarding and it's almost like effortless flight. The most important thing in the learning process however is simply to "let go and enjoy"! I know it sounds all hippie and vague, but it's the real key to L-R I think. Sometimes you come across a word that's on the tip of your tongue, and so you put your mind on lock-down to search for it, and whist you do this you miss the next couple of sentences and end up unsuccessful in retrieving the translation anyway. Other times you worry about some particular aspect of the language, perhaps an unusual word you've come across several times and still don't know the meaning of, or a niggling grammar rule you induce after several similar examples, and so you furrow your brow and sulk unawares through the following paragraphs. All these things, be it worrying over the details and losing a word here and there, or stopping to resolve them, make it all a bit less fun and relaxed and bite into your overall exposure over time. So my best tip of the day is to really relax and have some fun with the story, and this is what you already seem to have started doing, which is great :) Edited by Teango on 17 March 2010 at 8:05pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5554 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 60 of 185 19 March 2010 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | |||||
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PROGRESS IN German, WEEK 11/52 OF THE 2010 TAC CHALLENGE
SUMMARY L-R: 15.5 hours (Das Parfum*** by Patrick Süskind) TV: 0.5 hours (a little free online "South Park" in German) ———————————— Week Total: 16 hours LR Total: 114.7 hours Year Total: 271.8 hours WANDERLUST CONFESSION BOX Japanese: 128/2042 kanji, lesson 7/56, 12.9% coverage (Reviewing the Kanji; Heisig book for correct stroke order) TEANGO’S WORD/PHRASE OF THE WEEK I have a "multikulti" smörgåsbord for you this week... German: "Elektro-Winkelmann" (open to any ideas, but I'm guessing it means something like the electrician guy on the corner); and I particularly like this next one..."die Räuberhöhle" (den of thieves, brigand's lair), which more than fairly describes the prices in my local supermarket. Russian: "Doktor Kto" (you can work this one out for yourself I'm sure, but just try saying it several times...it's a real tongue twister). French: "ouais" (yeah or yep), this comes courtesy of Tomahawk and Buttons - merci à tous les deux, and there was I thinking it was just an accented Parisian "oui" all these long years; and along similar lines, let me also add "ouah" (yes! or wow!), but not to be pronounced "oo, ah, Cantona!" ;) NOTES Well once again the workload's piled up (everything needs to be completed before the end of the current tax year in UK, so it's all a mad rush right now) and this has kept me largely distracted from language studies this week. So I've still got a bit of a way to travel with Das Parfum, and my light-speed LR has had to slow down to impulse power due to entering a bumpy asteroid belt of project deadlines and reports. However I'm looking forward to the weekend, where I hope to do some catching up with listening-reading and enjoy the glorious sun which has now emerged after months of snow upon snow here in Germany :) Edited by Teango on 19 March 2010 at 3:27pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| fistsofabadger Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5375 days ago 16 posts - 19 votes | Message 61 of 185 19 March 2010 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Hi Teango,
Good to read your thoughts of LR - I've seen a lot on the forum about it, but it's nice to read some first hand experience of it. I was concerned about how the "learning" actually takes place .. "hippy and vague" is a good way of summarising how I feel about it! Still, if it brings results, I'm willing to give it a shot. The other thing that concerned me was the kind of intensity required - I've read a lot of posts suggesting 12 hours a day, which to me is .. well, unlikely right now. How long are your LR sessions? Is the intensity critical to the effectiveness? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Volte Tetraglot Senior Member Switzerland Joined 6437 days ago 4474 posts - 6726 votes Speaks: English*, Esperanto, German, Italian Studies: French, Finnish, Mandarin, Japanese | Message 62 of 185 20 March 2010 at 3:29am | IP Logged | |||||
Yes. Even a small amount can be helpful, but intensity is rather important. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| fistsofabadger Newbie United Kingdom Joined 5375 days ago 16 posts - 19 votes | Message 63 of 185 20 March 2010 at 10:03am | IP Logged | |||||
Thanks, Volte. As I say, the intensity seems a little daunting to me, but the results definitely sound impressive - so worth a try, at least. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Teango Triglot Winner TAC 2010 & 2012 Senior Member United States teango.wordpress.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5554 days ago 2210 posts - 3734 votes Speaks: English*, German, Russian Studies: Hawaiian, French, Toki Pona | Message 64 of 185 20 March 2010 at 3:10pm | IP Logged | |||||
First of all, I think it's great that you're considering Listening-Reading. So far I've found this to be one of the most effective and enjoyable techniques for getting to grips with a language, especially considering how important it is to sort out listening skills from the very start. This is why I use Listening-Reading as the key method at this crucial initial phase in my larger language learning programme. My LR sessions have varied quite a lot so far this year. They've ranged from 10 hours a day to 10 minutes, and I feel a little ashamed that I've let my team down a bit and not been able to do better so far. To be fair though, this is really more due to work commitments and things like illness or my computer popping its clogs recently than to anything else, although I can't deny that a touch of laziness and procrastination also comes into play quite often. My ideal goal however would be to take a good chunk of time off at the beginning of each language programme, and do 10 hours a day during the week, and 5 hours a day at the weekend. This is what I affectionately refer to as "light-speed LR" or "taking off in LR". As I'm a project contract worker, I hope to be able to make a bit more time for myself very soon and do exactly that. When I do, readers of my log will be the first to know how that goes :) With regards to intensity, I think you need to strive for the most efficient "Middle Path" in language learning really. If your studies are too intense, you're in risk of burning out far too early in the game and even growing to hate the study process, which is one of the worst things that could happen. If you sit back and relax too much, you could end up like I did one afternoon, asleep on the sofa drooling in an extended LR siesta for 2 hours. The main thing here is be alert and focused, but also relaxed and having fun, a good Middle Path for Listening-Reading. A bit like a fisherman with his nets thrown beneath a bounteous waterfall, or a gold prospector panning in a lucky Californian stream in the days before the Gold Rush, you just know and trust that with a bit of patience you'll end up with a bagful of goodies by the end of the day. I think once you've achieved this middle way, then exposure is extremely important, much more than intensity. If you think about it, the more words you end up listening to and reading, the more likely you'll revisit a word that you've learned and revise it, or learn new contextual words and grammar concepts along the way. You also build up a condense cloud of semantics and emotions around these new words as you see them used in varied contextual surroundings and new plots and stories. Now more than many, I realise how 10 hours a day is a tough target to reach, and if you work full-time and have other commitments, then you'd be lucky to fit in an hour or two at the very most. When this is the case, then courses like Pimsleur or Assimil, that offer up the language in good 30 minute chunks, may be much more appropriate for the busy worker or student with too much on their plate. If you do have a good stretch of time available for language studies though, I thoroughly recommend Listening-Reading to enjoyable quality material for at least 50% of your waking day (e.g. 8+ hours). There are many good reasons for this, but mainly it's all to do with passive review I believe. According to research on the "Forgetting Curve", you can forget up to 80% of what you learn within 24 hours if you don't review, which in turn needs to be followed up with further reviews spaced at exponentially longer intervals. This is the concept underlying Spaced Repetition with flashcards, etc. The more you listen-read in a day, i.e. the greater your exposure over a day or week or month, the greater the chances are of review for the important core vocabulary in the text. This is particularly true because you'll be reading words that are all bound up by the same story and literary style of the author. My little analogy for this is that you need lots of LR exposure in the run-up to "natural listening", in the same way that a plane needs to build up plenty of speed before it can take flight. This would be my ideal. One final note, and I guess you could see this one coming, joy, joy, joy - if you enjoy the books that you LR (the style, the author, the narrator, the plot and characters, turning each page poised with bated breath to uncover what happens next, etc), then you'll also develop a love for the language and culture too, and this is what will bring you back time and again for more adventures in the language. So if you want to focus on intensity in your LR studies, then I recommend being intensely into with what you read and listen to most of all. Edited by Teango on 20 March 2010 at 3:12pm 3 persons have voted this message useful |
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