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日本語 and me the next round TAC 2012 Team い | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Kappa Groupie Japan Joined 5518 days ago 99 posts - 172 votes  | Message 65 of 333 04 March 2012 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It's our pleasure to serve you and we are glad we could be of any assistance to you.
I think you got it right on the usages of らしい. However, having thoght about it, I didn't provide enough information in the previous post and some things may have been a little misleading. I'll have a guess and your next question would be how all of these are different from "様だ". And it's not at all annoying, though could be a little demanding. In fact, I saw it coming. I intentionally skipped everything else and tried to keep it simple, short and plain in very limited situations, if not insufficient, in order not to cause confusion. Not to mention I didn't feel confident to explain things (due to my English skills and the lack of grammatical knowledge in Japanese). Please note that these are mere examples and not definitive. What I wrote in the parenthesis are just for-instances. There are a ton of other possibilities.
"みたいだ" and "ようだ" are used alike. You are guessing based on your physical senses (see, taste, smell, feel, hear, etc.). "日本はもう春らしい" expresses that the speaker is not 100% certain about the fact, still more or less guessing from what s/he heard AND/OR the information s/he gathered (see the example below) while "日本はもう春だそうだ" is merely passing on the information s/he heard from someone else to somebody and s/he has little doubt. There's other usages for "そうだ", mentioned later, below. Same goes for the following examples, except "彼は林檎を食べたらしい" could mean two things. (Sorry for the poor examples, couldn't come up with anything at all.)
"らしい", "ようだ" and "みたいだ" can be used in similar senses, but "らしい" is often used to express guess from something s/he heard whereas the others are "subjective" so to speak. Both "らしい" and "そうだ" can convey that the speaker heard it from someone but with "そうだ", it's more declarative. The speaker didn't come with that coclusion her/himself, someone else (the person who told him/her) did. As I mentioned earlier, "そうだ" has several usages just like everything else.
Note the difference between 寒いそうだ and 寒そうだ. The former is competely different from the latter or the other expressions here. What you actually want to compare to them is the latter, so there was actually no point in putting it in the examples I gave before. The latter expresses guess mostly from your sense of sight or your gut feeling. Compared to "スコットランドはウェールズより寒そうだ", "スコットランドはウェールズより寒いらし い" would show that the speaker is less interested in the topic or paying less attention to the topic. Or it means the speaker heard about it from someone, and yes with a lesser amount of interest. When you are served something that looks delicious, you'd say "おいしそう!, looks delicious!". From that you can see it shows much more interest and attention. It's getting very confusing now. See this is why I shouldn't do explanations (and I try not to). It always gets messy and confusing and I don't even know what I'm saying now. Anyhow, I'm a little tired now. I'll add something later, if I come up with anything at all. Or maybe drop some links. And I really should think of better examples to illustrate them clearly. Best, Kappa Edit: Forget everything I said and precede to the following links. http://www.apjapanese.net/grammar-review/special-expressions /similarity-or-hearsay/ https://sites.google.com/a/keisensei.com/kei-sensei/home/-6- auxiliary-verb-ji--yodoushi-jodoushi/i-souda-rashii-sou-da-- -rashii--hearsay-denbu-n--denbun These are in Japanese. http://www.jpf.go.jp/j/japanese/survey/tsushin/grammar/20101 2.html http://www.jpf.go.jp/j/japanese/survey/tsushin/grammar/20110 3.html Edited by Kappa on 04 March 2012 at 2:05pm 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 66 of 333 10 March 2012 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Kappa, your explanations are amazing. You might have confused yourself, but I feel much less confused as a result!
よう is turning out to be a tricky little word. The grammar book I have been using seems to have grouped all N3-appropriate uses of よう together so a few things I have had to worry about this week include: The difference between ～ように and ～ために The difference between ～ように and ～とおり The difference between ～ように and ～なさい The difference between ～ようにする and ～ようになる To add to that I picked up the following two gems as well. Actually I think both might prove to be quite useful, especially volitional form + とする: The difference between volitional form + とする and ～てみる The difference between volitional form + としない and していない I must say I have been quite enjoying getting stuck into learning some new grammar and expressions in preparation for N3. It makes me realise quite the rut I’d got myself stuck in, probably since around 2010, where I have been concentrating more on using what I already know rather than discovering new things. I guess the secret to success is finding the time to do both! Since entering myself for the exam, my preparation has focussed on using the 日本語総まとめ books for grammar, vocab and kanji. I am starting to quite like the grammar book. At least so far there seems to be a real logic as to which grammar points are grouped together (for example, it covered ～みたい ～らしい and ～っぽい together in one section). However, explanations where provided are very brief so you have to really pay attention and ask yourself why the grammar points are important, what they mean and how they relate to other expressions. But I am finding that going through this process really helps to get things to stick. Access to grammar dictionaries, Google and one or two native speakers is really helpful to clarify things. I have mixed feelings about the vocab book. I like the fact that it is careful to group each lesson around a specific theme and, at least so far, the themes have all covered really practical things like cooking, cleaning, laundry, children and pets. I also like the way that vocabulary is often grouped together so you can learn verbs with appropriate nouns and particles together. However I think the book just tries to deliver too much too quickly and there is very little wider context of the words being used. I guess a more ideal book for me might combine reading practice with the vocabulary, for example (with no more than 20 target words a lesson!) The kanji book is more annoying. It’s not quite sure whether it is a kanji book or a vocabulary book. So although each section starts with the typical kanji list plus readings and vocabulary, most of the example questions seem to focus on appropriate usage of vocabulary. As it stands, my existing knowledge of kanji is already pretty much appropriate for the level so I am not too worried about this and am happy to use the practice questions just to keep my skills sharp. However, if I needed to do some targeted kanji study for the level I would be searching for another textbook now. One issue with the 総まとめ books is they seem to have rather a lot of typos. Although on the one hand I feel quite clever for spotting some of them, it's a pretty poor show for books that are geared towards cramming for a test! I decided I would have a go with the Unicom N3 listening book which has been sitting on my bookshelf for about a year but I had a bit of a nasty shock with it. It starts with the question type where you hear a statement from somebody, and then it gives you options to select the most appropriate response. I did the first 18 questions before giving up in despair and I only scored 6/18. Given that the book only gave you 3 options to answer each question, I might as well have been guessing the answers! So this section needs some work. At least in most cases the book gives reasonable explanations for each question and I think this demonstrates that I need to work on learning a few more fixed expressions, getting a more natural understanding of 尊敬語 and 謙譲語 and when they should be used, building my vocabulary and exam technique. I think there is still time to tackle all of that. I ordered a box full of other N3 practice books which arrived yesterday. I guess when I set my mind to something, I do it properly… I haven’t had chance to use any of them yet but I am sure I will report back with reviews when I get the chance. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 67 of 333 21 March 2012 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I’m almost beginning to regret entering myself for the N3 now. Trying to work out how to best prepare for the test is turning out to be quite stressful and has recently been distracting me from the more important business of actually learning the language. Any advice on how to prepare would be most appreciated. I will try to set out my understanding of my own strengths and weaknesses and expectations of the test.
Expectations of the test: Actually working out what the test will require of me is probably the source of most of my grief. The official level specification seems to be deliberately vague and the official test questions are limited in number (basically one example for each type of question which will appear on the test). I have acquired a reasonable number of textbooks aimed at N3 but I am also very aware that the textbook writers are essentially making an educated guess at what is appropriate for the level. I know one person in real life who has actually sat the test at N3 level and I probed them a little bit about their feelings about how difficult the real test was compared to the textbooks they had used to prepare. However, their skillset is very different to mine (our strengths and weaknesses are practically the complete opposite), so I expect my experience of the test might be quite different anyway. Strengths: Looking at both official test material and my textbooks, my knowledge of kanji (or more importantly kanji-based vocab) seems to be at an appropriate level for the test. I am also not too worried about reading as I had little trouble with the extracts from the official test questions (although I made one stupid mistake because I rushed when choosing an answer – I guess there’s a lesson in exam technique for me). I am trying to read a couple of passages from my N3 practice books on an almost daily basis, and closer to the time I will be reading them with a stop watch to keep an eye on the time, and I hope that this will get me through that section of the test. Middle ground: My grammar needs some work but I don’t think it’s a hopeless case either. I think I know roughly half of the grammar points in the Soumatome book and it shouldn't be too much of a challenge to cover the other half in the time available. In terms of exam technique, I’ve done a little bit of practice with the re-arranging the sentence style of exam question because this really threw me to start with but I’ve realised that as long as I approach it logically (thinking about which bits can fit together and be grammatically correct, e.g. position of particles) it’s not actually too bad. Weaknesses: I am really worried about listening. In particular, the questions where you don’t know what they are going to ask until after you have listened to the extract. I really don’t know how best to work on this. The other major area of concern for me is vocabulary. I started studying from the Soumatome vocab book and using the old method of throwing everything into Anki…until I quit Anki yet again in a mindless vocabulary-induced moment of despair. And while the vocab book covers lots of useful practical things like cooking, cleaning and buying train tickets, the official test questions instead seem to focus on the usage of trickier words (e.g. picking the correct adverb) and identifying synonyms. So again, now I am not sure how to approach vocabulary, except I have started flicking through The Handbook of Japanese Adjectives and Adverbs with vague ideas about trying to improve my knowledge of adverbs… And yet the vocabulary element of the test only takes up one third of one section of the test as a whole, so I wonder if I am worrying disproportionately. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 68 of 333 03 April 2012 at 8:49pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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It’s hard to believe that the first quarter of this year’s TAC is already over. I took a pause to go over my aims that I posted at the start of the year and reflect on whether I have done what I said I would do (and whether that matters). And then I closed the window by mistake and lost everything… It was turning into quite a lengthy post so perhaps that’s a good thing!
I’ve realised that I have pretty much squeezed all I can out of Japanese for Busy People in terms of self study. Although I feel in a way I am cheating because I haven’t done every single exercise in the book, I’ve realised when I use it now I feel more and more like I am just going over old ground and don’t really benefit from the additional revision. It is definitely time to move on. I got myself a new kanji book (留学生のための漢字の教科書中級700) which, if I get round to finishing it, should see me through to N2 level for kanji (if nothing else). It follows a similar format to Basic Kanji Book, but assumes you already know 300 kanji and adds another 700 over the course of the book. It was £20 from the Japanese bookstore in London, which I think is actually pretty good value for what it offers. I have also started experimenting with paying for private lessons online. My weekly Japanese class will wind up for good at the end of May and I doubt anything will be offered next year at a higher level. I need something to fill the gap. I would prefer face to face lessons but the only option I could find, through a private language school, was prohibitively expensive. Anyway, I have had an initial meeting with an online tutor and the setup seems to work pretty well so I am looking forward to taking a few lessons and seeing how they go. I’m still trying to find my feet when it comes to preparing for the N3 although I am a little bit less worried about it now. I’ve realised that I need to strike a better balance between practice and study. For a couple of weeks I focussed too much on studying from Soumatome and drilling in Anki and as a result I actually felt like my skill levels had decreased. I’ve now dropped Soumatome because it has too many flaws and I have given myself another good telling off about Anki. I am going to continue to use Anki in conjunction with my kanji book, because I think when it comes to memorising kanji it actually really helps, but for vocabulary I’ve realised I have to learn it through exposure and usage. Some of the N3 言語知識 practice drills I have done are actually really helpful for picking out words where the usage is perhaps a little bit tricky. It is then up to me to use the words (and of course expose myself to them through reading/listening practice). For now I am using the Unicom N3 grammar book and I much prefer the set up of this to the Soumatome book. I am picking 1 or 2 points a day to study, and should hopefully have the whole lot covered by 1st July! I am also dipping into the Unicom books for listening and reading but I am trying to prioritise listening and reading to native materials. Once it gets to June I think I will start using a lot more N3 drills/practice tests, but for now I am just trying to relax and enjoy the language again. And I think it’s working, I feel like I’ve levelled up again! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Sunja Diglot Senior Member Germany Joined 6083 days ago 2020 posts - 2295 votes 1 sounds Speaks: English*, German Studies: French, Mandarin | Message 69 of 333 04 April 2012 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I'm looking forward to reading about your new lessons! Which online tutoring service are you using?
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| fortheo Senior Member United States Joined 5034 days ago 187 posts - 222 votes Studies: French | Message 70 of 333 05 April 2012 at 7:25am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Looks like you are making great progress! all of your questions for kappa, are questions I have run into as well, so it was nice to see them explained here.
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| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 71 of 333 09 April 2012 at 1:08am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I am using www.japonin.com for the online tutoring. They offer both one to one private lessons and small group lessons. Actually, the thing that hooked me in was they are currently doing an introductory offer of 3 group lessons for 900 yen. I thought that was money I could afford to lose if the system didn't work very well. So far I have used up the three group lessons and am undecided as to whether to buy more, but I was happy enough with the system to go for some one to one lessons with the same school. They matched me up with a tutor and we met last Monday to discuss things and I start my first proper lesson tomorrow. The thing I was really pleased about was that the tutor used Japanese almost the entire time. On the odd occasion I couldn't understand her, she was able to rephrase in such a way that I could understand - which was great for keeping me in Japanese mode!
Speaking of Japanese mode, between last Monday and today I didn't speak Japanese to anybody. In the interim of course I've been doing things like reading, listening and studying, however it still felt like a bit of a shock when I got back on Skype today. It certainly took a while for me to warm up again. It's kind of scary how quickly my fledgling speaking skills seem to run away again without practice. Speaking every day is probably not necessary and, with my current lifestyle, it wouldn't really be achievable anyway, however it seems that speaking 3-4 times a week wouldn't be a bad idea at all. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5980 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 72 of 333 15 April 2012 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I thought that listening was my weakest point for N3 preparation. But then last weekend I did one of the practice tests in the 耳から覚える practice book and scored nearly full marks. To be honest I think the level of the practice test was pitched a little low. But then in the online lesson I had on Monday, we did some more listening practice questions. I'm not sure what the tutor's source is for the questions, but they felt at much more of an appropriate level, and I felt challenged. But I still managed to get close to full marks. So maybe I don't have to worry about listening so much. However I did a section of grammar drills from this book a few days later and scored a pretty desperate 8 out of 20. In short, eep. So I think the focus for the next couple of weeks will be grammar. At the moment I'm not sure to what extent the problem is lack of knowledge, or simply exam technique. Doing a few more sets of drills and analysing my mistakes should settle that one though.
I am going on a short trip to France this week so I have also been trying, once again, to refresh my French. I often go to bed listening to a Japanese radio podcast but for the past few nights I have replaced that with a set of Assimil lessons, just to see really how much I can understand. Basic grammar, verbs etc are not too bad, and generally it seems my comprehension of each lesson depends on the vocabulary used. Although I'm rusty I'm sure I know more than enough French to make my way around as a tourist (I think I can still order food and ask for directions...) Actually my biggest worry is that I will start speaking Japanese by mistake...and then be unable to express my embarassment appropriately in any language! I would really love to pick French back up properly. As I was drifting off to sleep listening to Assimil, I suddenly remembered the feeling of falling in love with a foreign language for the first time, happy memories of trips to France when I was younger, and the joy of discovering for the first time that it was possible to understand how another language works. It's a real shame I gave up, like so many people, when times got tough at the intermediate stage. I won't let that happen with Japanese! I think I've finally reached a point where my Japanese is better than my French ever was (except perhaps in reading - where the shared vocabulary and script still give French an unfair advantage). However, aside from this brief period of refamiliarisation necessitated by the impending trip, I still feel like any time spent on French is just stealing time from Japanese, and as it is there are not enough hours in the day to study Japanese as much as I would like. Once I reach the point where all I need to do for Japanese is read books and speak to people, I think I will make space for French. I guess I am writing all of this in an attempt to convince myself not to return from France with a suitcase full of French books! As it is I think I've bitten off more than I can chew with Solfrid Cristin's Super Challenge... Although I can't wait to start that either! 1 person has voted this message useful |
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