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TAC ’14: Sokoły / Соколи (Pol./Ukr. Team) | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| vermillon Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4676 days ago 602 posts - 1042 votes  Speaks: French*, EnglishC2, Mandarin Studies: Japanese, German | Message 73 of 151 16 January 2014 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I guess this is a good place to ask a question about Polish (?), or Slavic languages in general:
Is there a logic behind the prefix that marks the perfect aspect of verbs (when it's a prefix, of course)? I mean, are they predictable in any sense, or do they carry some semantic load, and awareness about this phenomenon would make it much easier to remember them? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4857 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 74 of 151 16 January 2014 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I haven't understood you :D Examples, please.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 75 of 151 16 January 2014 at 10:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Umm, pretty much all Slavic affixes carry a semantic load by default. But when the affix becomes a standard way of denoting aspect, the semantic load can be neutralized, sort of. Most verbs can take on many affixes, the key is knowing the default one to make this particular verb perfective.
I love the idea about facts etc! fact #1: Jestem studentką, ale nie wiem, ile czasu jeszcze będę :/ Стипендія? Яка стипендія? fact #2: "Jakie przyczepki? - Przyczepki EURO!" To był realny dialog w sklepie. Chciałam przypinki :D Coś takiego. fact #3: Tylko teraz popatrzyłam, czym są przyczepki. Po rosyjsku прищепка (priszczepka) to klamerka. more facts next time :P Edited by Serpent on 16 January 2014 at 11:46pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4857 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 76 of 151 16 January 2014 at 11:24pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I'll allow myself to correct you: "Jaką przyczepkę?" "Tylko (although more appropriate in this case would be "dopiero" or "właśnie"; with "tylko" here it would be like: "hmm, but now I see that it's a bit different than I thought. Well.../Eh...") teraz popatrzyłam, czym są przyczepki/czym jest przyczepka/co to są przyczepki/co to jest przyczepka"
Don't worry Serpent. You're better in grammar aspects than me. Такая жизнь... Edited by prz_ on 17 January 2014 at 12:11am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 77 of 151 16 January 2014 at 11:30pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I asked in the plural because I wanted to get as many different ones as possible for a friend who's collecting them :) I actually said something like przycepke, because I had seen the word przypinka but not really remembered it properly. By association with прицепить/прицеплять I came up with this :D
edit: no idea why i thought that the plural is przyczepke rather than -i. Latin influence I'm afraid XDDD is it correct now? I'll be collecting the facts about me in my log :) also ALWAYS feel free to correct me ♥ my goal for this year is basic fluency so corrections are always appropriate and welcome. Edited by Serpent on 17 January 2014 at 12:02am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7154 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 78 of 151 16 January 2014 at 11:57pm | IP Logged | |||||
The short answer is that the prefix used to indicate change in aspect isn't totally predictable or determinable by considering the most common meaning of the prefix when it acts as a preposition. I basically resort to trying to memorize verbs in pairs. I sense that the apparent randomness of the prefix used in Slavonic verb derivation can be akin to ESL students dealing with the seeming randomness of phrasal or prepositional verbs This phenomenon has bugged me enough that in October I changed my approach with Slovak after encountering a particularly frustrating set of exercises in my textbook where I was assigned to figure out the prefixed perfective counterparts of imperfective verbs on the strength of knowing the prefixes' most common meaning or sense when they act as prepositions. See here for more information. Since that time my study of Slovak has been restricted to finding the aspectual counterparts with prefixes by combing my Slovak-English dictionary and then consulting monolingual dictionaries. The most user-friendly information that I have found for the use of prefixes in creating perfective verbs is this sheet for Czech. Obviously it's not directly applicable to Polish or Ukrainian, but it does give some hints about the diversity of meanings or nuances that prefixed verbs have compared to their unprefixed counterparts. Here're the introductory remarks from this paper that precede the numerous examples:
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| prz_ Tetraglot Senior Member Poland last.fm/user/prz_rul Joined 4857 days ago 890 posts - 1190 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, Bulgarian, Croatian Studies: Slovenian, Macedonian, Persian, Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian, Dutch, Swedish, German, Italian, Armenian, Kurdish | Message 79 of 151 17 January 2014 at 12:29am | IP Logged | |||||
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Ok, now I think I get it. So yes, almost always they have some semantic sense. In fact I can't find any example when they don't. I can write more about it later, but for example po- means "ah, I will do it for some time" or "okay, I will dabble a bit and after an hour I'll go and watch baseball on TV". Of course there are some exceptions, especially put in the specific context: "muszę nad tym popracować" - it can mean that he or she has to work on it and maybe there would be reaaaally bad consequences if (s)he won't solve the problem.
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| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6595 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 80 of 151 17 January 2014 at 1:30am | IP Logged | |||||
Basically, I said *przycepke, the guy said przyczepki, my mum asked why I was talking about прищепки in a souvenir shop. lol. Edited by Serpent on 17 January 2014 at 1:33am 1 person has voted this message useful |
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