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 Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes |  | |
 jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6707 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes  Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 97 of 191 12 July 2007 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
A few comments:
The Mandarin course has both word-for-word translation and a "normal" translation. For the other courses I have, there is also word-for-word translation within parentheses (if it is very different from decent English), and the notes have some explanations.
For inflected languages the courses usually go through the verb forms in the seventh lesson that week (revision, explanations, grammar) - at least that's the case for German and Spanish.
Sort of. While the audio is target language only you must have some knowledge of the written language used in the book (I've only used English editions so far, and learn German and French partly because not all Assimil languages are available in English) 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| jeff_lindqvist Diglot Moderator SwedenRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6707 days ago 4250 posts - 5710 votes Speaks: Swedish*, English Studies: German, Spanish, Russian, Dutch, Mandarin, Esperanto, Irish, French Personal Language Map | Message 98 of 191 12 July 2007 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
The only way I read this, is that the FSI fans are disappointed because Assimil fans may spend less time (and less effort) on getting quite far - exactly HOW far you get with each method (as regards "fluency") is hard to say (if not impossible) due to learning style, aptitude, the quality of the particular course and much more. Who is intelligent and who is not? I'd rather spend half an hour than forever to learn some conjugations. But I have to do the practice myself. As Farley says, FSI only requires less salt, you can pretty much "use it as it is" - nearly in real-time. If a guy like Fanatic says he had a good command of German after just a couple of months with Assimil as his only teacher (and that he learned more French than during several years in school) - that's good enough for me. If it takes me a month longer too achieve that level, fine. Just a thought - perhaps it's more a question of sentence patterns than words - has anybody counted the sentences? If so, how close to 10 000 (as suggested for the sentence method)? What the heck, siomotteikiru says it's possible to get a working knowledge of a language just after 30-40 hours of listening-reading. Who knows? If it's "true" - is that also an "easier program that does not take you as far as FSI due to much less effort and material involved"? EDIT: Now I saw your tongue-in-cheek comment, but I keep my post. :) Edited by jeff_lindqvist on 12 July 2007 at 4:55pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| frenkeld Diglot Senior Member United States Joined 6741 days ago 2042 posts - 2719 votes Speaks: Russian*, English Studies: German | Message 99 of 191 12 July 2007 at 5:13pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Both FSI and Assimil are just foundational courses. The question then is whether Assimil by itself is sufficient as a foundational course. A course may fail to do so for two reasons, either by not going far enough, or by not providing enough detail, i.e., by being too sketchy. Is Assimil any of those things? As far as being comprehensive, if one does both "Martian With Ease" and "Using Martian", they cover all of the key grammatical structures and teach some 4000 words, which counts as comprehensive here on Earth. Sketchiness is another matter. Assimil is definitely sketchy, partly by design, partly just because. It is sketchy in the amount of grammatical explanations. This is by design, as they want you, or if you are too dumb, your brain, to figure out most of the grammar as you go along. The just because sketchy has to do with vocabulary - they don't have lessons called "every body part you will no longer need upon your death", or "every kitchen utensil you don't know the name of in your native language". But then, one can fill the gaps in such thematic vocabulary groups later. The more subtle Assimil "features" are moving too fast and using too much colloquial language too soon. Both are by design, and in addition to not supplying more copious amounts of grammatical explanations, they are what makes Assimil a somewhat uncertain choice for first-time language learners. A first-time language learner, as John Farley seems to have observed, albeit in a much more veiled and polite fashion, is a moron. He does Pimsleur and expects miracles. Upon discovering that "Le Petit Prince" in his target language is still a distant goal, he does Michel Thomas and expects miracles. Then he tries Assimil and says it's too hard. Feeling a desperate need for a stern master, he discovers FSI, and finally feels at ease in its boot camp atmosphere. All independent thought banished, he finally learns the language. A couple of years later, with basic fluency in his first language firmly under his belt and acute wanderlust in his bones, he gets lazy, very lazy. At this point he rediscovers Assimil. And the rest is history ... Edited by frenkeld on 12 July 2007 at 7:45pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Seth Diglot Changed to RedKing’sDream Senior Member United States Joined 7022 days ago 240 posts - 252 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Persian | Message 100 of 191 12 July 2007 at 6:54pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Jeff_lindqvist,
I am quite aware that there are grammar reviews at the end of every seven lessons. But I don't think that makes a huge difference. I thought the point of Assimil was to naturally aquire, say, verb conjugation through the dialogues; the grammar points are just to make sure you are getting everything straight. But if you actually need to refer to a chart to make sure your conjugation is correct, then I fail to see how that is on par with an FSI-ish course which (ideally) would have drilled you on all the forms. In other words, when push comes to shove you would have already said that form. This is important, for the most part, when we are talking about ireegular verb forms for example, which was my original point. I agree that glosses would make a rather large difference. There are none in Assimil Hungarian, which might account for part of my frusturations. My main complaint with assimil is not far from that of the Administrator. There is simply no speaking that is intrinsically tied to Assimil. There's nothing to prompt you to speak. There's not even room really to repeat words/phrases. At best, all you can do is shadow. And for a brand new language, shadowing does not do too much for me. The only other active excercise is the translation of the dialogues. With FSI-type courses, however, speaking (at least in a drill-type manner) is the most integral part of the courses. It doesn't work without it. You the learner are constantly cued with a task to complete, so to speak. Once again, let me say before everyone gets upset that I don't think Assimil is a horrible course. With rather familiar languages I can see how it might work nicely. I aslo think, in general, that it is better than Teach Yourslef and Colloquial. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Seth Diglot Changed to RedKing’sDream Senior Member United States Joined 7022 days ago 240 posts - 252 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Persian | Message 101 of 191 12 July 2007 at 6:57pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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Asiafever,
What you described is not at all what is meant by drills in the FSI sense. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| LilleOSC Senior Member United States lille.theoffside.comRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 6489 days ago 545 posts - 546 votes 4 sounds Speaks: English* Studies: French, Arabic (Written) | Message 102 of 191 12 July 2007 at 9:25pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
That may be one of the key differences separating Ardaschir from the other Assimil learners. He said that when he used Assimil he shadowed a lot. FSI has a lot of speaking opportunities like you said, but for Assimil the only speaking you really get is from shadowing. So doesn't that show that speaking is integral to gain fluency? If that is indeed true, then shouldn't FSI be the better course because its focus is on speaking? 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| FSI Senior Member United States Joined 6157 days ago 550 posts - 590 votes Speaks: English* | Message 103 of 191 12 July 2007 at 9:32pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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^ According to the comprehensible input model of language learning - which Assimil and FSI both impart, though the former more exclusively than the latter - what is important isn't output, ie speaking, so much as input - ie, reading and listening.
The idea is that a sufficient amount of integrated and internalized material will permit the learner to speak freely when s/he is ready. From my study, I have come to agree with this model as I understand it. Assmil may not offer drills in which the learner is urged to spit back phrases, the way FSI does, but rather, its greater focus on imparting the learner with the tools of the language (vocabulary, grammar, sentence structure, etc) is designed to enable the learner to produce that output when enough of what is necessary to produce speech/writing has been taken in [assimilated], to sufficiently deep levels. Edited by FSI on 12 July 2007 at 9:36pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Seth Diglot Changed to RedKing’sDream Senior Member United States Joined 7022 days ago 240 posts - 252 votes Speaks: English*, Russian Studies: Persian | Message 104 of 191 12 July 2007 at 11:02pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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I understand that. And my mind is completely open to that theory. So far I have not come across any literature validating it, but I would be very interested in reading published. However, it certainly seems like a difficult method to test.
I stand by what I have argued. However, the most important message to take home at the end of the day is that if it works, go with it! I will not argue with results! Edited by Seth on 12 July 2007 at 11:04pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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