A Rashi Decision: Learning Ladino (Language Learning Log) Language Learning Forum

A Rashi Decision: Learning Ladino
Tags: Ladino \| Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC)
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akkadboy
Triglot
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France
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Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh

Message 49 of 85

05 March 2014 at 2:05pm | IP Logged

It seems you are really enjoying learning Ladino, thanks for the links you posted.

There are some digitalized Ladino documents from the Cairo genizah on the Cambridge Digital Library website.
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akkadboy
Triglot
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France
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Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh

Message 50 of 85

05 March 2014 at 3:36pm | IP Logged

Sorry if this resource has already been mentioned.

I regularly go to the Harvard Digital Library and found out today that they have a few hundred Ladino books available for download (the usual religious books but also a lot of novels, plays, history books, etc).

Bad news is that the guy who took the pictures seems to really have hated is job and managed to render lots of (most of ?) the pages unreadable. Still, that leaves quite a lot to read and enjoy.

Edited by akkadboy on 01 September 2018 at 10:50pm
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iguanamon
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Message 51 of 85

05 March 2014 at 3:52pm | IP Logged

Mersi muncho, akkadboy! This is why I advise beginners to start a log. I did not know about this. Again, thank you!
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akkadboy
Triglot
Senior Member
France
Joined 5406 days ago
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Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish
Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh

Message 52 of 85

05 March 2014 at 4:17pm | IP Logged

You're welcome, iguanamon !

I've browsed through the titles and it really is a pity that so much pages are blurred. I guess it is the story of the half-empty/half-full glass again :-)
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Expugnator
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Brazil
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Speaks: Portuguese*, Norwegian, French, English, Italian, Papiamento
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Message 53 of 85

06 March 2014 at 8:49pm | IP Logged

Wonderful! Found an online novel in Papiamento. How do I get access to it?
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iguanamon
Pentaglot
Senior Member
Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
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Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

Message 54 of 85

07 March 2014 at 12:32am | IP Logged

The Manual of Judeo-Spanish is one of the textbooks I am using to learn Ladino. The lessons are quite thorough and well organized, but this ain't Assimil. There's no facing English translation. I find that the lack of English in the dialogs helps me to think in the language. Here, I'm sharing the dialog of Lesson 3 as a sample. The English Translations in blue are mine:

The Manual of Judeo-Spanish wrote:

Each lesson begins with a section called “Objectives”
Communication Skills- your location, the location of things, what you do, asking questions, obligation
Vocabulary- hot->cold, the house, prepositions-place, ordinal numbers, meanings of echar
Grammar- uses of echar and kaler, present subjunctive
Culture- home arrangement, customs, the Djoha character

Dialog:
En kaza- A la haragana tadre le vyene la gana
To the lazy woman late comes the desire (literal)
The lazy woman's desire to do something comes too late
Eti: Mama esta desrepozada, kale ke espajemos las dos. Yo vo a fregar
      Mom is resting, we both have to tidy up. I'll scrub.
Selen: Mama, myentras estas echada en la sofa, vamos a enderecharte todo.
          Mom, while you're on the couch, we're going to straiGhten up everything for you.
La madre: Mersi muncho, ijikas. Vo a tomar una kura i vo a mirar de durmir un poko.
                        Thanks a lot, girls (dauhters). I'm going to take some medicine (a pill) and try to sleep a little.
(En el mupak)
(In the kitchen)
Eti: Yo vo a enshavonar i enshaguar i tu, vas a sekar kon este handrajo i guadrar. En primero las kupas... (shrak!) Guay de mi!Se va a aspertar mama!
I'm going to wash and rinse and you, you'll dry with this dish towel and put them away. First the glasses... (sound of glass breaking) Oh my! It's going to wake Mom.
La madre: Kualo esta afitando?
                        What's happening?
Selen: No ay nada, mama, solo ke se kayo una kupa en basho. Esta pedasos!
          It's nothing, Mom, it's just that a glass fell to the floor. It's broken to pieces!
La madre: Ke kupa es?
                        Which (What) glass is it?
Selen: La ke metes enriva del armaryo en el kantoniko.
          The one you put in the top corner of the cupboard.
La madre: Na! El vazo de la bula. Vazo malo no kaye de la mano.
                        So it is! The wedding glass (glass of the spouse). A bad glass won't fall out of the hand.
Eti: Kapara por ti. Ande esta el fregon?
      Don't worry, though something bad happened, something good will happen later. Where's the scouring pad?
Selen: Nalo, en la pila, al lado del shavon.
                    It's there on the sink, beside the soap.
Eti: Agua kayente no ay. Esta yelada. Uuyy, yelada buz!
       There's no hot water. It's coooold. Oo, cold as ice!
Selen: Kale avrir el gas del shofben i deshar la agua korra un puntiko. Ya sta kemando las manos
                    You have to turn the gas on the water heater and let the water run a bit. Then it will be scalding your hands.
Eti: Mama, ande esta la payla?
       Mom, where's the bucket?
la madre: Debasho de la pila ande se guadran la leshiya i el chop. Ajenas sosh! Mijor me alevanto i lo ago.
                        Under the sink where I keep (is kept) the bleach and the trash can. You (girls) aren't used to this kitchen. It would be better for me to get up and do it.
Selen: No mama, kale ke te arepozes! (a Eti) Ande meto los pirones i los kuchiyos?
                        No Mom, you need to rest! (to Eti) Where do I put the forks and knives?
Eti: Aryentro el sigundo kashon al lado de las kucharikas.
       Inside the second drawer beside the small spoons.
Selen: Las kasherolas kale ke se eskurran. La eskova esta detras de la puerta. Yo vo a barrer....
          The casserole dishes need to be scoured. The broom is behind the door. I'm going to sweep....
Eti: Lo ke ve la es-huegra!
       My dictionary says "not to clean too thoroughly, just enough to please the mother-in-law so she won't complain."

audio for this lesson

This book is a gem! After the dialog is a glossary of words divided into words of Spanish origin and words from other languages like Turkish and Hebrew. Next is grammar followed by more vocabulary,then the special grammar topic focus. Then there's culture, exercises, readings a song or two, more exercises, more readings- each reading comes with a glossary and explanatory notes.

Sadly, studying this book makes me think that I may never be able to internalize this communication and really make it a part of my life in the same way that I have my other languages because of the lack of modern media, for example: no Ladino dub of The Walking Dead or any TV series. No tutor to talk to or native-speaker for conversation, etc. Still, I am learning about another culture and using a multi-track approach to use what I have. I'm learning about a different culture, religion and way of looking at the world. I'm learning to read in Rashi script and starting to try and puzzle out Solitreo (Ladino cursive). I'm finding that I am acquiring a taste for Ladino music and songs. I feel like I am starting to "get used" to Ladino as a language.

Here's a link to Manual of Judeo-Spanish by Marie Christine-Varol on Amazon.

Mersi muncho por meldar i adyo asta mas tadre...

Edited by iguanamon on 08 March 2014 at 3:43pm
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akkadboy
Triglot
Senior Member
France
Joined 5406 days ago
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Speaks: French*, English, Yiddish
Studies: Latin, Ancient Egyptian, Welsh

Message 55 of 85

07 March 2014 at 9:17am | IP Logged

Expugnator wrote:

Wonderful! Found an online novel in Papiamento. How do I get access to it?

If it's Giambo bieuw a bolbe na wea, it is only accessible to Harvard users apparently. It is also the case for some of the Ladino books (maybe because of copyright issues ?).
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iguanamon
Pentaglot
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Virgin Islands
Speaks: Ladino
Joined 5260 days ago
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Speaks: English*, Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Creole (French)

Message 56 of 85

13 March 2014 at 1:50am | IP Logged

On a another thread started by Christina, How much time to learn a language?, I wrote about one of the issues I am having with Ladino and why I will never be as good in it as I am Portuguese and Spanish.

iguanamon wrote:

I could study for the next 100 years and never speak Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) properly, the idioms and puns involving the choice of when to use a Turkish, Greek or Hebrew origin word over a Spanish origin word for effect is an aspect of the language I will never manage to acquire due to the moribund nature of the language, the lack of opportunity to speak with native-speakers and the lack of popular Ladino media. Even if I had all that, without that multilingual background, I wouldn't be able to speak Ladino with that skill. The right word, paraphrasing Mark Twain, is the difference between "lightning" and the "lightning bug".

The few Sephardim remaining who still speak Ladino grew up multilingual. They were surrounded by Turkish, Greek, Arabic, Hebrew and French at school. Later they learned Spanish, Hebrew or English in the diaspora. They spoke Judeo-Spanish at home and incorporated a lot of that mixture into their language in a playful way that showcases their mastery of language skills in general. Could I have a conversation in Ladino now, yes, but I will never speak it with the dexterity and flow that I can with my other imperfectly spoken languages. I accept that. It will be enough for me to get used to the language and appreciate those qualities and aspects that make it unique as a language. Will I claim to speak Ladino? Even if I do at some point, that ability will only be to a certain level- "not bad for a foreigner", perhaps. Which is what I strive for anyway. ...

Here's an illustration of the problem from the Manual of Judeo-Spanish

Manual of Judeo-Spanish wrote:

Doktor Maymunidis! is what one says to someone who poses and claims to be smart. One might think that this is some sort of deformation due to ignorance about the Córdoba philospher Maimonides which in Judeo-Spanish is Maymonides. But that would be quite wrong, for one also needs to hear in this name the Turkish maymun of the same etymon, meaning "monkey" and the greek -idis with which Greeks of the Black Sea area form family names. What these irreverent Spanish Jews are making fun of, then, in the first level, is not the great Maimonides but rather (calling someone) a monkey, furthermore a Greek, who takes himself for a Maimonides. And tough luck if he didn't get it! Here is the essence of Judeo-Spanish...

So, how am I ever going to have this skill not being fluent in, or surrounded by, Hebrew, Greek and Turkish? I'm not. Perhaps I may have a semblance of it if I can manage to memorize a few of these and employ them as needed. It won't come as naturally to me as an idiom in Spanish or Portuguese, or even Haitian Creole would though.

My book A Jewish Voice from Ottoman Salonica is full of this kind of thing with the addition of Hebrew to Greek and Turkish, since it deals with Rabbinic persecution. The Eastern Sephardim were and are masters of manipulating language to use sarcasm and satire by combining elements of the other languages and incorporating them into Ladino. I reckon I'll just have to do the best I can.

Rashi Progress: I am about halfway through the Book of Genesis and enjoying it. I put El Princhipiko on hold for a little while but will come back to it, probably next week when I will have finished Genesis. Solitreo (Ladino cursive) will come after I internalize Rashi. After listening to the news in Ladino today Kol Israel, I was able to read the Hebrew script for Yiddish and listened for a little while to the other pan-European Jewish language יידיש . Yiddish sounds like German, but not quite, sort of German with Hebrew and Slavic elements. Just what I need after dealing with Ladino (tongue in cheek)! So, I guess I'm starting to internalize Rashi and the Hebrew script titles of the Rashi texts!

Adyo por agora

Edited by iguanamon on 13 March 2014 at 12:35pm

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