And Assimil? (Language Programs, Books & Tapes) Language Learning Forum

And Assimil?
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Language Learning Forum : Language Programs, Books & Tapes

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FSI
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Message 137 of 191

14 July 2007 at 1:30am | IP Logged

I agree on the fluidity of having a course entirely in the target language, and not in the teaching language.

Edited by FSI on 14 July 2007 at 5:51pm
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Seth
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Message 138 of 191

14 July 2007 at 2:06am | IP Logged

I also like having material that is only in the target language. But if we're talking about just listening to dialogues with nothing to prompt the student to speak, then I prefer to save it until at least basic knowledge of the language is gained. (Once again, more familiar languages might be an exception).

FSI, by the way, (at least from what I have seen) is easily 95% in the target language. Easily.

And no, from what I have seen Assimil does not go through all conjugations in the recordings. In Assimil Persian I see "I find" and maybe "he finds." But how would you say "he would have found."? Perhaps it will be instinctive based on other verbs you have seen. Or maybe you'll have to consult the grammar chart at the end of the book. But then that's not really the point of Assimil.

This discussion isn't really going anywhere at this point, but I'll say again that I don't see how Assimil does much to build speaking skills since speaking is not intrinsically tied to the nature of course. All you can do, for the most part, is shadow. I don't enjoy shadowing as much as others, since speaking and listening at the same time are not entirely natural. But Assimil really does work well in the speaking department for others than more power to them.

I never advised anyone to give up Assimil.

Edited by Seth on 14 July 2007 at 2:10am
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jeff_lindqvist
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Message 139 of 191

14 July 2007 at 4:49am | IP Logged

Seth wrote:

In Assimil Persian I see "I find" and maybe "he finds." But how would you say "he would have found."? Perhaps it will be instinctive based on other verbs you have seen. Or maybe you'll have to consult the grammar chart at the end of the book. But then that's not really the point of Assimil.

...or perhaps you don't even say that in Persian (you won't find all tenses and modes in each language).
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Seth
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Message 140 of 191

14 July 2007 at 11:07am | IP Logged

Come on, give me more credit that. While I did just think of an example off the top of my head, Persian has a very rich collection of tenses, moods, aspects, etc. I'm sure you run into examples of most of them, but you only seem to hear a couple examples of verb X and a couple of verb Y interspersed throughout the course.
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frenkeld
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Message 141 of 191

14 July 2007 at 12:01pm | IP Logged

Seth wrote:

... speaking is not intrinsically tied to the nature of course.

How can one avoid speaking if one follows the instructions for the active wave?

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jeff_lindqvist
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Message 142 of 191

14 July 2007 at 12:59pm | IP Logged

Seth wrote:

OK, I see what you mean now. What you're looking for is likely to be brought up in a method like FSI (drilling almost every possible combination), and perhaps less likely in Assimil where you may have to "fill in the gaps" yourself - each method has its points.
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reltuk
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Message 143 of 191

14 July 2007 at 1:01pm | IP Logged

Seth wrote:

And no, from what I have seen Assimil does not go through all conjugations in the recordings. In Assimil Persian I see "I find" and maybe "he finds." But how would you say "he would have found."? Perhaps it will be instinctive based on other verbs you have seen. Or maybe you'll have to consult the grammar chart at the end of the book. But then that's not really the point of Assimil.

This is probably terrible criteria to judge the course by. From what I understand, you haven't spent significant time with the Persian Assimil course and you haven't spent significant time with a representative corpus of informal Persian speech. Assimil is under no obligation to give you mastery of every "verb conjugation" or any other grammatical construction. Most of their courses for living languages do strive to give you familiarity and generative ability with the majority of constructs that are met in informal conversational speech. My impression is that FSI is the same way and would not give particular emphasis to the purely literary tenses in French, for example.

Seth wrote:

I'll say again that I don't see how Assimil does much to build speaking skills since speaking is not intrinsically tied to the nature of course. All you can do, for the most part, is shadow. I don't enjoy shadowing as much as others, since speaking and listening at the same time are not entirely natural.

This insistence that speaking is not a part of the Assimil method is wrong. The course instructions are very concerned with you producing the language orally, and steps are taken to constantly remind you to do this, to help you with pronunciation, etc. Some excerpts from some "with Ease" courses:

French with Ease wrote:

We will help you to learn French in much the same way as you learned English: by listening, repeating and drawing conclusions. And finally, by speaking.

French with Ease wrote:

[In the first wave y]ou listen, repeat, and try to understand. [In t]he second wave [you] will draw on the knowledge you have acquired, prompting you to form new sentences and to express your ideas.

French with Ease wrote:

During the first wave [...] you simply listen to the lessons, look at the translation and notes and repeat the text aloud.

French with Ease wrote:

Please remember that for the time being, all you are required to is to understand the French text and to repeat.

French with Ease wrote:

Don't try to analyze [these] constructions [...]. Practice repeating them aloud!

French with Ease wrote:

Don't forget to read the text aloud: it is important to get the rhythm of the language, and to "feel" the liaisons.

French with Ease wrote:

After listening to the French text again and reading through it aloud, cover it up and try to reproduce it from the translation opposite.

Spanish with Ease wrote:

The most important thing to do at this stage is to concentrate on pronouncing each word or sentence correctly.

Spanish with Ease wrote:

When you have finished reading each sentence, see if you can repeat it without looking at it. This is an important exercise, and will allow you, little by little, to think in Spanish.

Spanish with Ease wrote:

The sentences in the lessons are starting to get longer. When you've finished reading each one, try and repeat it without looking at the text. The more you do this, the easier it will become to start thinking in Spanish.

Spanish with Ease wrote:

Translate the English sentences back into Spanish. Don't work in silence: you must accustom your tongue, lips, mouth and ears to the sounds and shapes of Spanish. [...] If you find it easier to remember things if you write them down, you can complete the second wave exercises by writing them down after you've spoken them aloud.

German with Ease wrote:

Remember that you are not required to learn the texts by heart. Listen carefully to the lessons and read each paragraph aloud, immediately after you have heard it.

German with Ease wrote:

Don't worry about any words or expressions that have not yet been explained; just try to repeat and to understand them in their context.

German with Ease wrote:

Listen regularly to your lessons, read them aloud---sentence by sentence---without asking yourself too many questions.

German with Ease wrote:

Don't forget to read each lesson aloud. It's the best way to familiarize yourself with the pronunciation.

German with Ease wrote:

You have now moved from the passive to the creative stage and you will be speaking and thinking in German every day.

Italian with Ease wrote:

First, read the Italian text once out loud while listening to the recordings [...]. [...] Next, read the Italian text once again, [...] listen to [the recordings] once or twice without reading, and this time concentrate on the rhythm and intonation of the Italian sentence. Now re-read while listening to each sentence until you feel capable of repeating it aloud with its natural rhythm.

Italian with Ease wrote:

we advise you to listen carefully to the recording and then try to reproduce the intonation and rhythm of the Italian phrases as faithfully as possible.

Italian with Ease wrote:

try to "enter" into the Italian language: read the text, repeat it aloud and, above all, try to capture the rhythm of the Italian sentence.

Italian with Ease wrote:

You are still in the "passive" phase of your studies. For the time being, try to feel the sounds and intonation of Italian by repeating aloud phrases and dialogues while imagining yourself as an actor playing the roles in the various situations we present you with.

Italian with Ease wrote:

Remember, it is essential to follow the "rules of the game": always read the Italian sentences with their translations and their notes first; once you are certain of the meaning, re-read every sentence aloud and then immediately try to repeat it again.

Italian with Ease wrote:

after each new lesson, you will start revising a lesson from the beginning of your book, this time trying to translate the English text (of both the lesson and exercises) into Italian, orally and in writing if you wish.

As you can see, repeating aloud is considered a very integral part of the Assimil method. This does not have to take the form of shadowing. You can do it from memory after having heard the entire lesson many times; you can do it after each sentence, pausing the recording; you can do it by reading the text; it is suggested, at least in the Spanish course, that you do it at least a couple times with each sentence from short term memory, after reading the sentence.

You can also see that the instructions for the active phase make in to be an oral translation: you are to speak the translation that you produce.

Hope this helps to clear up any confusion,
-- reltuk

Edited by reltuk on 14 July 2007 at 1:24pm
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Seth
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Message 144 of 191

14 July 2007 at 1:06pm | IP Logged

Ok. I understand that your supposed to translate the first half back into the target language. I guess we can call that the speaking my portion. I am talking more about the fact that there is no speaking portion on the recording really--no interaction. I guess that doesn't bother most people. But we've already been over that.

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