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Josquin’s Language Symphony (RU, IR, 東亜) | ||
Tags: Gaelic (Scottish) | Gaelic (Irish) | Icelandic | Portuguese | Multilingual | Total Annihilation Challenge (TAC) | Italian | Japanese | Russian | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4638 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes  Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 33 of 646 12 May 2012 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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SATURDAY, 12 MAY 2012
After my little fling with Faroese, I have returned to my long-term target language Russian. Today, I repeated unit 2 and did all the exercises, then I continued with unit 3. Unit 3 deals with the genitive and accusative singular of nouns. The accusative is rather simple, because neuter nouns and inanimate masculine nouns have the same ending as in the nominative, and animate masculine nouns have the same ending as in the genitive. The endings for feminine nouns are also rather logical, being -у or -ю. Only feminine nouns with nominative in -ь take the same ending in the accusative. Genitive is also rather straightforward. For masculine and neuter nouns, the ending is -а or -я, depending on the stem. For feminine nouns it's -ы or -и. I also repeated the и-conjugation with its stem changes and stress shifts. As a little example for what I'm doing at the moment, I'll show you the translation exercise from my textbook which I did today. This way, I can also practise typing in Russian (по-русски). I translated the following from German into Russian: Здравствуйте! Меня зовут Карл. Я живу в Берлине. Я врач и работаю в больнице. А это моя семья. Моя жена учительница и работает в школе. Её зовут Моника. Это наши дети: Их зовут Андреас и Вероника. Сейчас мы дома. Я читаю, а Моника слушает Вивалди. Наш сын делает уроки. А наша дочь в школе, она иргает в театре. Она наша "актриса". Hello! My name is Karl. I live in Berlin. I am a doctor and I work in a hospital. And this is my family. My wife is a teacher, she works in a school. Her name is Monika. These are our children: Their names are Andreas and Veronika. Now, we are at home. I am reading and Monika is listening to Vivaldi. Our son is doing homework. And our daughter is in school, she is playing theatre. She is our "actress". Edited by Josquin on 12 May 2012 at 10:25pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4638 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 34 of 646 13 May 2012 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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SUNDAY, 13 MAY 2012
Today, my political party won an important state election in Germany, so it was a nice day for me. Besides politics, I used it mainly for learning Russian. I repeated lesson 3 and did all the exercises. They went pretty well, though I'm still confused by the orthographical rules of Russian. Never write -ы, -ю, -я after г, к, х and ж, ч, ш, щ, but always -и, -у, -а. Combine these rules with those for forming case endings and the confusion is perfect. I think I just have to get used to it via practice. Unfortunately, there are only few exercises in my textbook, so I will start writing down declension paradigms by myself in order to practise the correct endings. I also had a sneak peek at lesson 4. It deals with the preterite tense of verbs, which is very easy in most cases, the days of the week, and the verbs идти and ехать. They both mean 'to go' in English, in German you can translate them with 'gehen' and 'fahren'. Tomorrow, I'll repeat vocabulary and listen to the recordings of the dialogues. I also wrote two little paragraphs in the Russian thread, which I repeat here in a corrected version (thanks, Марк): Привет! Меня зовут Кристиан. Я студент и живу в Германии. Люблю Россию и русский язык. Ещё люблю музыку и читать книгу. Я ещё не говорю и не понимаю по-русски, но учу русский язык. Сейчас я уже пишу по-русски. Это очень интересно. Сегодня воскресенье. Я не работаю. Отдыхаю, слушаю музыку и учу русский. Завтра иду в университет и работаю опять. До свидания! Hello! My name is Christian. I am a student and I live in Germany. I like Russia and the Russian language. I also like listening to music and reading books. I do not speak or understand Russian yet, but I am learning the Russian language. Now, I am already writing in Russian. That is very interesting. Today is Sunday. I am not working. I am relaxing, listening to music, and learning Russian. Tomorrow, I will go to university and work again. Goodbye! 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4850 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 35 of 646 14 May 2012 at 7:22am | IP Logged | |||||||||||
There is no such a rule about velars. The rule is only applied to sibilants (ж, ч, ш, щ). Vowels after the velars are spelt strictly according to the pronunciation. On the opposite, if книги was spelt книгы, it would be a special rule, because this word is pronounced with soft г - книги. Russian children learn that жи, ши are spelt with и, because they are pronounced [шы] [жы]. But ки ги are pronounced ки ги, so no one learns this rule. Кюри and Аршакян are pronounced with soft к. Edited by Марк on 14 May 2012 at 7:23am 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4638 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 36 of 646 14 May 2012 at 1:44pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Oh yes, this rule exists. My textbook as well as my reference grammar say so. Perhaps, it's not necessary for native Russian speakers to learn it, because they can instinctivly distinguish between soft and hard consonants, which is not easy for a beginning learner.
Yes, but книга has a hard г, so its regular plural ending would be -ы, because feminine nouns with a hard stem take the ending -ы. But because you never write ы after г, the ending has to be -и. At least, that's how I have to learn it. A native speaker may have a different approach.
Кюри and Аршакян are proper names. In proper names and loanwords exceptions to the rule may occur. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| fabriciocarraro Hexaglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Brazil russoparabrasileirosRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4509 days ago 989 posts - 1454 votes Speaks: Portuguese*, EnglishB2, Italian, Spanish, Russian, French Studies: Dutch, German, Japanese | Message 37 of 646 14 May 2012 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
Me too, I learned it the same way as you. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4501 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 38 of 646 14 May 2012 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
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So did I, when I took my first baby steps in Russian. Don't worry too much about it, Mark's just very very meticulous with his phonology.
1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Марк Senior Member Russian Federation Joined 4850 days ago 2096 posts - 2972 votes Speaks: Russian* | Message 39 of 646 14 May 2012 at 8:29pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
There is a subrule about velars, they become soft before и. That's how Russian grammar works. It's a grammar rule, which is not connected with orthography. Душа, for example, has regular hard stem endings [душа] [душы], but Russian orthography requires души for some unknown reason. There is a Russian word кыш which is pronounced as it is written, the same can be said about loanwords. Loanwords are a part of the language in the same way as native words. Книги is not spelt книгы for the same reason it is not spelt кныги. If spelling simply reflects pronunciation, it's not called a spelling rule. The situation with velars is not the same as with sibilants. The former are spelt regularly but have special treatment in the spoken language, the latter are regular in the spoken language but have special spelling rules. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||||||||
| Josquin Heptaglot Senior Member Germany Joined 4638 days ago 2266 posts - 3992 votes Speaks: German*, English, French, Latin, Italian, Russian, Swedish Studies: Japanese, Irish, Portuguese, Persian | Message 40 of 646 14 May 2012 at 9:00pm | IP Logged | |||||||||||
So, we can agree it's a grammatical rule, not a spelling rule. Is that what you want? In any case, it is a rule that a learner of Russian has to learn, be it grammatical or orthographical. As I said, I am writing from a beginner's point of view. I know virtually nothing about Russian and have to learn by simple rules. Learning that after г, к, and х you have to write -и instead of -ы is much easier than learning that hard г, к, and х become soft in front of an -ы/-и ending and that's why we choose -и instead of -ы. One could also claim that nouns with a stem ending in -г, -к, and -х are a special subgroup of nouns with a case ending -и where other nouns of the same declension have the ending -ы (my grammar book does so). This might be the grammatically most correct, but at the same time most complicated rule, so I simply learn: after г, к, and х always -и, never -ы. Is everybody happy now? 1 person has voted this message useful |
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