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How do polyglots do it?

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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion Post Reply
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s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5219 days ago
2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 97 of 159
10 January 2014 at 2:11am | IP Logged 
Although I have never met a person who has learned French to a native pronunciation after starting as an adult - let's say age 21 -, I do not think it is impossible. But that is only one part of the equation. Being brought up in a language means having been exposed to a vast range of subjects and experiences that are encoded in the language. One tiny but important element is exposure to colloquial language and slang. I'm including in this vulgar and obscene language that is often used in humor and jokes. All native speakers acquire a good knowledge of this language register even though they may use it to varying degrees.

I do not in anyway want to slight or doubt the achievements of individuals here who have high levels of proficiency in any of their target languages. Some people may actually be indistinguishable from natives. It's rare by why not?.

What we should really keep in mind is how to get there. What we do see in the vast majority, I will even say the near totality, of cases of people who have native-like abilities in other languages is 1) start at a young age 2) lots of time and 3) immersion, preferably in school with children of the target language. That will do it.

What will not work very well is 1) starting late and 2) studying outside of immersion. This will not produce anything close to native-like results. At best, you will get what is called the Joseph Conrad syndrome, i.e. the ability to write great prose but retain a strong foreign accent that is the cause of much anxiety.
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1e4e6
Octoglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 4079 days ago
1013 posts - 1588 votes 
Speaks: English*, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Dutch, Swedish, Italian
Studies: German, Danish, Russian, Catalan

 
 Message 98 of 159
10 January 2014 at 2:11am | IP Logged 
That is interesting, but what happens to the accent of a foreign speaker who marries a
newcaster or someone who uses a "neutral accent" in cuotidiane speech? This also whilst
living in the country of the spouse, in the same domicile speaking to each other daily.

For example, I found an interview of the newscaster whom I mentioned earlier,

Tenemos Que Hablar

and she seems to use the same "neutral", as some classify it, accent even in regular
speech.

Edited by 1e4e6 on 10 January 2014 at 2:15am
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6386 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 99 of 159
10 January 2014 at 2:27am | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
What we should really keep in mind is how to get there. What we do see in the vast majority, I will even say the near totality, of cases of people who have native-like abilities in other languages is 1) start at a young age 2) lots of time and 3) immersion, preferably in school with children of the target language. That will do it.

What will not work very well is 1) starting late and 2) studying outside of immersion. This will not produce anything close to native-like results. At best, you will get what is called the Joseph Conrad syndrome, i.e. the ability to write great prose but retain a strong foreign accent that is the cause of much anxiety.
Depends on your definition of immersion. If you listen a lot and preferably also visit the L2 country every now and then, there's no reason for the Joseph Conrad syndrome to develop. Assuming you're not exceptionally talented, at best you'll have a slight accent that doesn't hinder any communication.
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culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3786 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes 
Speaks: Spanish

 
 Message 100 of 159
10 January 2014 at 2:29am | IP Logged 
s_allard wrote:
Although I have never met a person who has learned French to a native pronunciation after starting as an adult - let's say age 21 -, I do not think it is impossible. But that is only one part of the equation. Being brought up in a language means having been exposed to a vast range of subjects and experiences that are encoded in the language. One tiny but important element is exposure to colloquial language and slang. I'm including in this vulgar and obscene language that is often used in humor and jokes. All native speakers acquire a good knowledge of this language register even though they may use it to varying degrees.

I do not in anyway want to slight or doubt the achievements of individuals here who have high levels of proficiency in any of their target languages. Some people may actually be indistinguishable from natives. It's rare by why not?.

What we should really keep in mind is how to get there. What we do see in the vast majority, I will even say the near totality, of cases of people who have native-like abilities in other languages is 1) start at a young age 2) lots of time and 3) immersion, preferably in school with children of the target language. That will do it.

What will not work very well is 1) starting late and 2) studying outside of immersion. This will not produce anything close to native-like results. At best, you will get what is called the Joseph Conrad syndrome, i.e. the ability to write great prose but retain a strong foreign accent that is the cause of much anxiety.


It's definitely possible to acquire that cultural knowledge. Let's say you move from France to the US at age 20 and live in the US from age 20 to 50. You'll be pretty American at the end. You may not have the knowledge of kids shows unless you watch old childrens shows at age 20, something that I wouldn't recommend but whatever...

...I think as long as your accent isn't painful (for me, painful is listening to Sofia Vergara speak in English) and understandable then you can be an "honorary" native speaker. The accent, to me, isn't that important even in professional settings. I understand others would really care about it to make it native-like but to me it is more of a personal pursuit and not really important for the vast majority of jobs.
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culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3786 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes 
Speaks: Spanish

 
 Message 101 of 159
10 January 2014 at 2:32am | IP Logged 
1e4e6 wrote:
That is interesting, but what happens to the accent of a foreign speaker who marries a
newcaster or someone who uses a "neutral accent" in cuotidiane speech? This also whilst
living in the country of the spouse, in the same domicile speaking to each other daily.

For example, I found an interview of the newscaster whom I mentioned earlier,

Tenemos Que Hablar

and she seems to use the same "neutral", as some classify it, accent even in regular
speech.


It could just be her way of speaking, man. I usually speak with a diction and voice quality that most Americans consider "formal." A "professional" type of speech. So when I speak in Spanish people tell me that I speak so formal. I'm like, "it's just my way of speaking!"
1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 6386 days ago
9753 posts - 15779 votes 
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Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 102 of 159
10 January 2014 at 2:40am | IP Logged 
culebrilla wrote:
Reaching an advanced level at something is NOT, repeat, NOT, more of a LAUDABLE goal than reaching a a lower level in several things; they are equivalent if both people have spent the same amount of time on the tasks.
So the time spent is the only thing you can be impressed with? How about efficiency? If someone learns the language for 10 years at school and learns next to nothing, how can this be as impressive as actually learning something in any language? Even if we count the time like in ice hockey, there will still be tons of learners who've learned more within the same timeframe.
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s_allard
Triglot
Senior Member
Canada
Joined 5219 days ago
2704 posts - 5425 votes 
Speaks: French*, English, Spanish
Studies: Polish

 
 Message 103 of 159
10 January 2014 at 3:06am | IP Logged 
I think we are beating this dead horse endlessly. Can one acquire native-like proficiency in one or more foreign languages starting at an adult age under the right circumstances? Yes.

How many people do acquire native-like proficiency in one or more foreign languages at an adult age and under any circumstances? A very tiny number.

In my opinion, this pretty much sums up what we have all observed.
2 persons have voted this message useful



culebrilla
Senior Member
United States
Joined 3786 days ago
246 posts - 436 votes 
Speaks: Spanish

 
 Message 104 of 159
10 January 2014 at 3:11am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
culebrilla wrote:
Reaching an advanced level at something is NOT, repeat, NOT, more of a LAUDABLE goal than reaching a a lower level in several things; they are equivalent if both people have spent the same amount of time on the tasks.
So the time spent is the only thing you can be impressed with? How about efficiency? If someone learns the language for 10 years at school and learns next to nothing, how can this be as impressive as actually learning something in any language? Even if we count the time like in ice hockey, there will still be tons of learners who've learned more within the same timeframe.


No. The level is what impresses me. However, you do have to spend a lot of time in things to be good at them. In a lot of instances you can't really be "efficient." Different strategies work well for different people. You may, for example, find flashcards to be efficient. I don't personally find them to be too helpful although I have used that trick at times. I find it more helpful to read something and then quiz myself by asking myself questions or by writing down everything I learned in my reading.

That hypothetical person that learned for 10 years in school most likely spent three hours of class time a week. That is very little time spent. Now spend 20 hours of week in class and study/practice 30 hours a week outside of class and now we are talking.

That is why the "years" argument really fails. Again, I have a Spanish friend that always says to me, "But I've studied English for three years!" It's hours that matters.

Me: How many hours per week did you practice?

Her: 4 hours a week.

Me: That's not a lot.

To the other person: Yes, that is what everybody is saying. But some are not getting the message.



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