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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| montmorency Diglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4838 days ago 2371 posts - 3676 votes  Speaks: English*, German Studies: Danish, Welsh | Message 145 of 299 23 October 2013 at 10:02am | IP Logged | |||||
Also spoken in Northern Ireland, although some people might argue that that is yet another language, rather than a dialect. 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
 Iversen Super Polyglot Moderator Denmark berejst.dk Joined 6713 days ago 9078 posts - 16473 votes Speaks: Danish*, French, English, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Esperanto, Romanian, Catalan Studies: Afrikaans, Greek, Norwegian, Russian, Serbian, Icelandic, Latin, Irish, Lowland Scots, Indonesian, Polish, Croatian Personal Language Map | Message 146 of 299 24 October 2013 at 10:12am | IP Logged | |||||
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Well, I have marked Lowland Scots under "studies" because I actually study it - and I study it using sources which are quite away from the kind of standard English I'm using in this message. Earlier in this thread I wrote that you should must study a language variant as a fullblown language if you want to use it actively. On the other hand, many undisputed languages are so close that you can treat them as dialects if you just want to understand them passively.
The problem with hardcore Scots is that it is at one end of a language continuum. Mony Scots spake a leed conseestin o Sassenach wirds spaken wi a truly Scots ring. And people in Northern England speak the descendants of precisely those dialects which when imported to the Scottish lowlands developed into the thing called Scots. But that's a thousand years ago, the diversification process has stopped and at least since the 1700s Scots has been steadily moving in the direction of the multiple Englishes spoken in the South. There is also another problem: why should precisely Lowland Scots (even in its hardcore form) be defined as a language, when all the other variants of English 'only' are seen as dialects? OK, it has been proposed to define 'Ebonics' as a language in its own right, but that proposal was probably too controversial to become common wisdom. And those who call Scots a true language face a situation where it is tiny Scots against a monstrously big and diverse thing called English. But for those who study it actively it is necessary to learn it as a language, and if I for some reason decided to learn Caribbean English or a Southern redneck variant of English I would have to do the same. Btw. Laland Scots is on the list, but Plattdüütsch ain't. Even Schwiizertüütsch is absent. Edited by Iversen on 24 October 2013 at 10:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6688 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 147 of 299 24 October 2013 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | |||||
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I always get annoyed when, in general, people think that having some mutual
intelligibility means you "know" the other language and, more specifically, when Slavic people say that "oh, if you know Russian learning Ukrainian takes no more than 1 month" (I heard that a couple of weeks back). Right. I can guarantee that it takes way longer. (If not, I'm really crappy at learning languages.)
I've been wondering about this actually! I've been in Oslo for 6,5 years now, and I eat/drink out quite a lot, so I run into this horde of nightlife Swedes. And they almost never speak pure Swedish. After being to one restaurant last autumn I asked my boyfriend about this, if he thought our waitress, who indeed sounded very Swedish, spoke Swedish to us. He was all "well yes, obviously, she spoke Swedish". She had not used one Swedish word in her conversation with us, only Swedish pronunciation. So I wonder if Norwegians believe these Swedes actually speak ordinary Swedish to them when they do this. If a person uses Swedish pronunciation and melody, but Norwegian vocabulary, what is he/she then speaking? Likewise with my Danish father-in-law. He speaks Norwegian (vocabulary wise), but with Danish everything. It's also amusing when telephone sales people (only Swedes will accept those jobs here) call me and we're both there going "should we switch to Swedish now?!?" while stammering through an awkward conversation where we both switch back and forth between Swedish/Norwegian vocabulary while I try to tell them I'm not interested in whatever they have to sell. 3 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5344 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 148 of 299 24 October 2013 at 12:48pm | IP Logged | |||||
I have never heard Swedes use Norwegian words, but I can of course not rule out that they put in Norwegian words that I do not notice, if they are pronounced in Swedish. I would just assume that this was part of their dialect, since there are some Swedish dialects close to the Norwegian border which are closer to Norwegian. As for "speaking Norwegian with Danish everything" that is a concept I have a very hard time wrapping my head around. Danish basically is Norwegian with a Danish pronunciation - or to be mer accurate - Norwegian is basically Danish with a Norwegian pronunciation. The differences in vocabulary are minimal if you disregard their counting system and the fact that our word for crying is their word for smiling(grine). But it is interesting to know that Swedes also speak Svorsk. We have this concept here that only Norwegians do that because of our huge inferiority complex when it comes to Swedes. Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 24 October 2013 at 12:52pm 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4717 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 149 of 299 24 October 2013 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | |||||
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Do not worry, I will snakke norsk with you instead of prata svenska ;) Edited by tarvos on 24 October 2013 at 12:55pm 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| tricoteuse Pentaglot Senior Member Norway littlang.blogspot.co Joined 6688 days ago 745 posts - 845 votes Speaks: Swedish*, Norwegian, EnglishC1, Russian, French Studies: Ukrainian, Bulgarian | Message 150 of 299 24 October 2013 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | |||||
And here I thought the Swedish invasion of the last decade was the origin of svorsk! That's at least the impression I get in Oslo. I'm very much aware of what vocabulary people use since I translate from Norwegian to Swedish, so I always notice whenever a Swede uses a Norwegian word. And believe me, they do it all the time. The only time I have ever heard Norwegians use Swedish words is when they mock young Swedes and their stereotypical, aggressive approach to customer service (like that new commercial for Komplett). I always think there are actually differences between Norwegian and Danish, albeit not as big as between either of them and Swedish. Whenever I read a text in Danish, or translate from Danish, I am slowed down quite considerably and have to pay lots of attention to what's actually a singular and what's a plural, and there are many words I have to look up. Danish also always feels so German to me. 2 persons have voted this message useful | ||||||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5344 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 151 of 299 24 October 2013 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | |||||
Nah, Svorsk has been spoken at least since I was a kid - probably longer - and I was born in the first part of the 60ies. When I was in my early 20 ies Norwegians went to Sweden to find work. We are both very lucky that we have a neighbour country where there is little to no red tape if we want to go to work, or buy a house, where there are few difficulties when it comes to language, and where we are welcome. Many countries would have loved to be in our position. I am not familiar with any stereotypical aggressive approach to customer service on behalf is Swedes here. On the contrary, they are known to be a lot more polite and professional than the Norwegians. And it is perfectly possible that I underestimate the differences between Danish and Norwegian - having been around for a while means that I have come across most Danish words. You probably know the Norwegian saying that "The Devil knows more because he is old, than because he is the Devil..." 1 person has voted this message useful | ||||||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5440 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 152 of 299 24 October 2013 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | |||||
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As I follow this interesting discussion about everyday language use in Norway, I find it fascinating to read that
there are Swedes in Norway, or at least in Oslo, who talk to Norwegians in Swedish or is it in Norwegian with Swedish pronunciation? And the Norwegians don't mind? When I was in Norway, Norwegian all sounded the same to me. Who knows what I as hearing? So, to come back to the main point of the thread, couldn't one say that the three languages, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are mutually intelligible? Not to the degree of Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and Montenegrin, of course. But if you disregard the written language and certain cultural references, couldn't we say that there really is one Scandinavian language with three variants? Edited by s_allard on 24 October 2013 at 4:18pm 1 person has voted this message useful |
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