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You are not a real polyglot if... | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Henkkles Triglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4263 days ago 544 posts - 1141 votes  Speaks: Finnish*, English, Swedish Studies: Russian | Message 241 of 299 29 October 2013 at 7:32am | IP Logged | ||
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I think the case that we can establish here is that some are okay for people to be polyglots based on POLITICAL distinctions of languages, while others would like polyglot to be defined by LINGUISTICALly attested languages.
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7166 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 242 of 299 29 October 2013 at 7:34am | IP Logged | ||
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s_allard: Am I to be that naïve that changing a name out of political correctness or whatever other reason should take pride of place when dealing with problems? Hell, should I henceforth refer to "problems" as "challenges" because the former is perceived by some as too negative?
For me it's substance over style. Using "Roma "for "Gypsy" doesn't deal with the real problems that they face (which I've witnessed while in Czech Republic and Slovakia). Using the new "Belarusan" for "Belorussian" hasn't lead to a revitalization of the language as it still faces pressure from Russian just like when it was called "Belorussian" in the good ol' days of the USSR and even before. More to the point for me is that there's no change in the pathetic situation of learning materials for foreigners (as a geek of most Slavonic languages, I'm trying to scrounge whatever learning materials for it, just in case...). 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5440 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 243 of 299 29 October 2013 at 8:51am | IP Logged | ||
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I totally understand that there is a certain disdain for all these questions of official language nomenclature and
contemporary use of ethnonyms. It's true that they can be messy and don't lend themselves to easy analysis. They are not important for someone who is more interested in descriptive linguistics than in questions of what name to use for a language or a people. Eskimo or Inuktitut, what difference does it make if you are interested in the syntax of clitic pronouns? If linguistic science is the priority, then questions of the social status of the language and its speakers are irrelevant. This is the fundamental difference between @Chung and myself. I'm certainly interested in linguistics, the science, and especially semantics and linguistic change. But I'm also interested in the social use of language and particularly in questions of ethnic, social and national identity. This, I think, is of no interest to @Chung. Where this all comes to a head, of course, is, to get back to the OP, what constitues a polyglot. By definition, a polyglot is a person who is able to reproduce four or more different languages. So, the big question is what constitutes different languages? If the languages are genetically very different, there is no problem. But what about a person who claims British English, American English, Canadian English and Australian English? Aren't those all dialects of English and such a speaker could not be a polyglot? I take a more nuanced view. Since my major area of interest is semantics and the encoding of meaning, I say that an argument could be made for separate languages based on distinctions of culture and the ability to reproduce the experience of being British, American, Canadian and Australian. Frankly, I would be awed if I met someone who could sustain such a performance for any length of time. Just getting the phonology right would be an awesome achievement. I would be just as awed if I met someone who could sustain similar interactions in four varieties of Spanish or French. I would certainly call this person a polyglot because they are able to linguistically encode four differents sets of experiences. I assume, and may be wrong, that @Chung thinks that this is all drivel and that this is not polyglottery because in terms of syntax and lexicon the languages are not that different. It's all the same. Now, let's get back to our ex-Yugoslavian languages. There are four official designations: Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin. I didn't invent them. They are internationally recognized as official languages. We also known that linguistically they are nearly identical becaused they are based on the same old dialect. There is a distinction of cyrillic and non-cyrillic writing systems but for all intents and purposes they would appear to be the same language. Could someone list these four languages and claim to be a polyglot? Rather than immediately burst out into laughter and call the person a fraud, I'll try to be nuanced. First of all, I would certainly agree with most observers that this doesn't qualify as polyglottery as we know it since the languages are hardly distinguishable. Is that the end? No, I think that there is more to this than meets the eye. If I'm looking at the CV of a person I would seriously question why this person would put down these four languages. Considering the recent history of the region, I would think that anybody with a bit of commonsense would be very circumspect with the use of language labels in a CV. If I were applying for a job in Serbia, I would put down Serbian, In Bosnia Bosnian, etc. I probably would not apply for a job in Croatia and put down Bosnian just because the languages are supposedly identical. I may be stubborn but I'm not that stupid. But if I'm applying to the International Red Cross Commitee in Geneva or to the EU in Brussels, might it not be a good idea to list all four languages rather than just BSCM/SC or simply Serbo-Croat? Why would I put all four languages? Maybe this application will be seen by people from these various countries and I want to hedge my bets. Or I could simply say to hell with political correctness, I'm going to put down Serbo-Croat and come what may. This does not make the person more of a polyglot for our purposes here but I'm just saying that in the treacherous world of language politics in ex-Yugoslavia claiming proficiency in all four languages may be a wise move. Edited by s_allard on 29 October 2013 at 9:28am 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5440 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 244 of 299 29 October 2013 at 9:24am | IP Logged | ||
Come on. Let's not be silly here. I'm not insinuating that changing labels solves any underlying social or economic problems. What I'm talking about here is how usage changes according to prevailing social and political conditions. And part of all this is a sensitivity towards the names used to call people. I'm sure that most people today think twice about using the word gypsy, at least in public. Do I really have to explain why the term Roma has gained such prominence and gypsy has declined? I'm really astonished that anyone who professes to be interested in languages and wants - I hope - to speak them properly should display so little interest in current proper usage. I dare any reader here to say to go on American TV and say that Obama is a great negro president. Or that you want to find out more about the Indian languages of Canada. Or that you want to visit Nunavut so that you can see real Eskimo people. I know some people couldn't care less what they say, But I would think that most people around here would pay particular attention to these issues, especially in a foreign language where you may not totally master these nuances. I sincerely doubt that many people around here who speak excellent English would want to discuss questions of race or immigration in America with Americans. But then again I may be wrong. But all this discussion is irrelevant because what is really important is "the pathetic situation of learning materials for foreigners" Edited by s_allard on 29 October 2013 at 9:30am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| tarvos Super Polyglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member China likeapolyglot.wordpr Joined 4717 days ago 5310 posts - 9399 votes Speaks: Dutch*, English, Swedish, French, Russian, German, Italian, Norwegian, Mandarin, Romanian, Afrikaans Studies: Greek, Modern Hebrew, Spanish, Portuguese, Czech, Korean, Esperanto, Finnish | Message 245 of 299 29 October 2013 at 9:44am | IP Logged | ||
How many foreigners learn BCMS/SC? They'd be interesting to talk to anyways. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| Solfrid Cristin Heptaglot Winner TAC 2011 & 2012 Senior Member Norway Joined 5344 days ago 4143 posts - 8864 votes Speaks: Norwegian*, Spanish, Swedish, French, English, German, Italian Studies: Russian | Message 246 of 299 29 October 2013 at 10:12am | IP Logged | ||
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I would prefer if we in this particular thread stayed away from the issue of political correctness in languages, which is a huge topic in its own right.
There is no background (ethnic, religious, national, sexual, geographical, linguistic, mental or others) which I consider inferior to any other, but you do not want to get me started on PC-language. My feelings of irritation on claims that languages within one family are practically dialects, are but a mild summer breeze compared to the tropical hurricane of feelings I have on the topic of linguistic political correctness. Let's do that one some other time. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| s_allard Triglot Senior Member Canada Joined 5440 days ago 2704 posts - 5425 votes Speaks: French*, English, Spanish Studies: Polish | Message 247 of 299 01 November 2013 at 4:42am | IP Logged | ||
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Since the comment on political correctness seemed to have brought the debate to a full stop, I would like to
revisit this question of political correctness and the names of peoples and languages. As an example of the importance of the issue, here is an article dated October 30, 2013 from the Montreal Gazette on a problem that occurred at the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts. "MONTREAL -- The Montreal Museum of Fine Arts’s boutique has pulled a line of fashion and houseware off its shelves after The Gazette reported that First Nations artists found them offensive. On Wednesday, the MMFA apologized to members of First Nations communities who were offended by the Inukt line created by Montreal designer Nathalie Benarroch. The clothing, furniture and decor objects featured First Nations-inspired themes, like a chief in a feather headdress and plastic “Indian girl” dolls. “Following the comments we have received in the past few days, we have decided, in consultation with Nathalie Benarroch, that our boutique was not the best place for the launch of her collection. We have therefore contacted personally various members of the First Nations community, as well as visitors who have taken the trouble to share their opinions with us, to apologize and to let them know that the Inukt products will be withdrawn from the boutique in the next few days,” boutique manager Sylvie Labrosse said in a statement. Benarroch is not of indigenous descent and recently returned to Canada after 20 years in Paris, where she worked in the fashion industry. The Inukt line is not connected with any show at the museum. The controversy erupted as Beat Nation, an exhibition that explores the link between contemporary indigenous art and hip-hop culture, is on at the Musée d’art contemporain near Place des Arts. Sonny Assu, a Montreal-based Laich-kwil-tach artist of the We Wai Kai Nation who has two works in Beat Nation, said he was pleased by the MMFA’s decision to take the items off its shelves. “It really showed they were sensitive to issues and willing to accommodate indigenous voices,” he said. Assu described the Inukt line as being an example of cultural appropriation — the appropriation of elements of another group’s culture — that is “based on a stereotype of who an indigenous person is.” Labrosse said in a statement the purpose of the boutique and bookstore is “to promote cultural and artistic diversity.” The shop features items created by dozens of Canadian and international artists, she said. Thomas Bastien, the MMFA’s press officer, said the museum received several complaints after the issue was raised in The Gazette and on social media." Readers will have noticed that the words First Nations and indigenous are used four times. Indian, Eskimo and even Native do not appear once. But the main issue here is that a person of non-indigenous descent has created a line of clothing called Inukt with a number of stereotypical images of indigenous themes.that members of First Nations and other visitors deemed offensive. Did the MMFA overreact in the name of political correctness? Should they have said that some people are just thin-skinned and that this line of clothing is actually a celebration of Canada's Indian and Eskimo cultures? I think it's pretty clear that the MMFA decided wisely to listen to the voices of the First Nations observers who said that the name and themes of this line of clothing were offensive to many First Nations peoples. And this is the key point. In much of our discussions about names for languages and peoples we sometimes forget that basic courtesy says that we should enquire as to how people want their group and their language to be called. Nothing prevents anybody from using old names that people now consider inappropriate. But I suspect that even the most diehard people who are against political correctness will think twice before using workds like gypsy, Indian and Eskimo. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||
| leroc Senior Member United States Joined 4321 days ago 114 posts - 167 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German | Message 248 of 299 01 November 2013 at 5:15am | IP Logged | ||
In Alaska, Eskimo is an accepted term for the Yupik, Yu'pik and Iñupiaq people in the state. I realize in Canada it is different then the US, but as an Alaskan I'm providing a different perspective. Still, I'm not quite sure what this has to do with language learning. 5 persons have voted this message useful |
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