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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7140 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes  20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 81 of 541 24 November 2011 at 7:10am | IP Logged | ||
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FINNISH
I've just worked through Chapter 14 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points negative past tense, illative of the third infinitive, and expressing result using translative singular (-ksi). *** NORTHERN SAAMI N.B. "Davvin" comes in 4 volumes with each sequential pair forming a larger set. Davvin 1 consists of chapters 1 to 12 while Davvin 2 consists of chapters 13 to 25. I have completed Chapter 13 of Davvin 2 (i.e. the first chapter of this volume)and was introduced to consonant gradation of certain clusters, a couple of points about geminated (doubled) consonsants, paired subjects, conjugation for present tense plural of infinitives with an even number of syllables, the essive, locative of some pronouns and terms for kinship. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone). While doing the exercises, I noticed that I had some trouble using the dual and plural endings properly and so I'll be doing some more drilling with affirmative conjugation in the present tense for the verbs that I've learned so far before starting Chapter 14. 1) Notes on clusters "Strong" versus "weak" -bb- ~ -pp- -hčč- ~ -hč- -llj- ~ -lj- -tn- ~ -n- 2) Pronunciation of certain geminated consonants -bb- (pronounced more like -bbp-) -zz- (pronounced more like -ddc-) -žž- (pronounced more like -ddč-) 3) Attaching -guovttos to a name in its genitive singular form indicates a dual subject with the person mentioned by name often being accompanied by someone closely associated with that person E.g. Iŋgá ja Biera mannaba gávpái "Iŋgá and Biera go to the store" Iŋggá-guovttos mannaba gávpái "Iŋgá and her husband/friend/namesake etc. go to the store" 4) The plural present tense affirmative for verbs with infinitives of 2, 4 or 6 syllables is marked by adding suffixes to a stem (sometimes modified) that is in "strong" grade like the infinitive E.g. doalvut "to take away" (N.B. stem here will be doalvu-) mii doalvut "three or more of us take away" (N.B. the conjugated form looks identical to infinitive) dii doalvubehtet "three or more of you take away" (N.B. just attach ending to stem) sii dolvot "three of them take away" (N.B. -oa- diphthong in stem loses a; final -u of stem becomes -o) eallit "to live" (N.B. stem here will be ealli-) mii eallit "three or more of us live" (N.B. the conjugated form looks identical to infinitive) dii eallibehtet "three or more of you live" (N.B. just attach ending to stem) sii ellet "three or more of them live" (N.B. -ea- diphthong in stem loses a; final -i of stem becomes -e) juhkat "to drink" (N.B. stem here will be juhka-) mii juhkat "three or more of us drink" (N.B. the conjugated form looks identical to infinitive) dii juhkabehtet "three or more of you drink" (N.B. just attach ending to stem) sii juhket "three or more of them drink" (N.B. final -a of stem becomes -e) The plural present tense affirmative of leat "to be" is classified with the pattern for verbs with infinitive of an odd number of syllables but is somewhat irregular anyway from these verbs. mii leat "three or more of us are" dii lehpet "three or more of you are" sii leat "three or more of them are" See points 2 and 3 in entry for Chapter 10 for information on the diphthong alternations and dual present tense affirmative. 5) Essive is marked by -n attached to the "strong" stem. This ending is the same in singular and plural E.g. Bargi lea áittis "The worker is in the shed" Mun lean bargin "I am a/the worker" (literally: "I am as a/the worker") 6) Locative of more pronouns mis (< mii) dis (< dii) sis (< sii) das (< dat) geas (< gii) E.g. Mis lea biila. "The three or more of us have a car." ("we (plural)-[locative] is car") Geas lea biila? "Who has a car?" ("who-[locative] is car?") 7) Terms for kinship in Northern Saami are quite descriptive and make finer distinctions than familiar to many "Westerners". Here is a list of kinship terms according to Northern Saamic Wikipedia (translations retrieved by me)
Vocabulary of Chapter 13 bargi - "worker" bargu - "work" boazu - "reindeer" boazosápmelaš - "Saami who herds reindeer" čeahci - "paternal uncle" dii - "you" (plural) eambbo - "more" fargga - "soon" fitnat - "to visit" golbmanuppelogát - "thirteenth" mátki - "trip" mii - "we" (plural) naba - "what about…" oambealle - "female cousin" oažžut - "to get" sáhka - "news; message" sii - "they" (plural) šaddat - "to come" vázzit - "to walk" viessu - "house" vuoddji - "driver" Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises Deike bohtet guossit eahkedis. Sii orrot dappe ija. Moai Máhttiin ođđe stobus. Elle (El'le) ja Sire ođđiba mu gámmáris. Johán-čeahci ja Elle (El'le)-ipmi ja Márjá-oambealle ođđet stobus. Dii oađđibehtet gievkkanis. Edited by Chung on 24 November 2011 at 7:47pm 5 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7140 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 82 of 541 03 December 2011 at 8:23am | IP Logged | ||
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FINNISH
I've just worked through Chapters 15 and 16 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points compound past tense, more about the third infinitive, the hierarchy for using the cases in the direct object, terms for nationalities and languages, and certain adverbial constructions. *** NORTHERN SAAMI In my last post I noted that I was having some trouble with conjugating correctly the affirmative present tense for all subjects (and this was only for verbs with an even number of syllables in the infinitive. I haven't yet been shown the full pattern for verbs with infinitives of an odd number of syllables or the "contracting" ones) and thus have spent the last few days assimilating the patterns via drilling in the relevant verbs learned so far (almost 3 dozen). I've also been declining nouns whose stems have an even number of syllables in all cases in the singular as well as the nominative and accusative/genitive in plural with nouns of an even number of syllables. I've felt that I needed to a firmer grasp of the intricacy in declension learned so far (especially the alternations in certain cases that depend on the final vowel of a stem). The importance of the number of syllables for determining the use of alternation when inflecting is not to be taken lightly and takes some practice to gain a reasonable chance of inflecting correctly at least most of the time (if not reliably and always). I first encountered the interplay between inflection and the stem's number of syllables with Hungarian and saw it again (with different details) in Finnish, and later when studying Inari Saami. However what I saw in Inari Saami is of a comparable level of complexity with Northern Saami while the rules in Finnish and Hungarian are relatively simple (Hungarian's in particular) even though they may still challenge foreign learners not used to such methods (e.g. verbs in BCMS/SC whose conjugation in present depends on the verb's ending in infinitive (i.e. 1) -ati, 2) -iti/-jeti or 3) everything else), lexically-motivated condition in English and German (e.g. "strong" and "weak" verbs)). These vocalic alternations are in addition to consonant gradation which exists to a lesser degree in Estonian and Finnish and is absent in Hungarian. I'll be starting Chapter 14 of "Davvin 2" later this weekend. 4 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7140 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 83 of 541 10 December 2011 at 11:30pm | IP Logged | ||
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FINNISH
I've just worked through Chapter 17 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points genitive plural, verbal nouns and some odds and ends about declension. As I approach the end of reviewing (or in some cases learning a few new tricks) in Finnish, I'm thinking about what happens after. On one hand, I'm thinking of focusing on spoken Finnish and this would mean that I'd use at least one of Abondolo's flawed "Colloquial Finnish" and "Supisuomea". On the other, I'm thinking of sticking with the "traditional" approach using at least one of "FSI Conversational Finnish", "Finnish for Foreigners 2", "Kieli käyttöön" and "Kuulostaa hyvältä". Regardless of whichever register will be the focus, I'm eager to start going beyond self-contained courses and use FSI Finnish Graded Reader, any simple Finnish texts (online or otherwise) to expand my passive vocabulary. *** NORTHERN SAAMI I have completed Chapter 14 of Davvin 2 (i.e. the second chapter of this volume) and was introduced to affirmative present tense plural for verbs whose infinitives are of an odd number of syllables, the full negative conjugation in present tense, using the 3rd person singular as an impersonal construction and apparent conversion of final -h as -t in spelling. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone). 1) Affirmative present tense plural for verbs whose infinitives have an odd number of syllables is marked by adding suffixes to a stem that is in "strong" like the infinitive. (See 3) in entry for Chapter 7 of Davvin 1 for information on forming this stem). E.g. dárbbašit "to need" mii dárbbašit (N.B. same form as infinitive) dii dárbbašehpet (add -ehpet to stem dárbbaš-) sii dárbbašit (N.B. same form as infinitive) 2) Full negative conjugation in present tense (See 2) in entry for Chapter 4 of Davvin 1 and 3) in entry for Chapter 6 of Davvin 1 for negative conjugation in present tense singular and forming the main verb's stem (infinitive has even number of syllables) in negative present tense) mun in... don it... son ii... moai ean... doai eahppi... soai eaba... mii eat... dii ehpet... sii eai... E.g. Mun in leat "I am not." Doai eahppi oro Ohcejogas "You (2) don't live in Utsjoki." Sii eai jorggit "They (3 or more) won't turn back." 3) Using the 3rd person singular without the pronoun can correspond to an impersonal construction in English with "one" or "dummy it". E.g. Ii dan dieđe "It is unknown", "One does not know" (literally: "is not known that") 4) Certain verb stems end in -t instead of "expected" -d or -h when the stems are left "bare". E.g. árvidit "to guess" Don árvidat "You (sing.) are guessing" Don it árvit "You (sing.) aren't guessing" (*árvid- > árvit) Na árvit! "Well then, guess!" (*árvid- > árvit) čájehit "to show" Don čájehat "you (sing.) are showing" Don it čájet "you (sing. aren't showing" (*čájeh- > čájet) Na čájet! "Well then, show (me et al.)!" (*čájeh- > čájet) Vocabulary of Chapter 14 borga - "snowstorm" dárvanit gitta - "to become stuck" gea! - "look!" (sing.) geahččalit - "to try" goitge - "anyway" hoigat - "to push" issoras - "terrible" leat dárvanan gitta - "to be stuck" jorggihit - "to turn", "to turn back" jos - "if" nagodit - "to manage", "to have enough strength" njealljenuppelogát - "fourteenth" nu - "so" oažžut - "to receive"; to be allowed"; "to need to (do sg)..." tráktor - "tractor" veahkki - "help" veahkehit - "to help" Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises 1. Nagodehpetgo dii hoigat biilla? 2. Dárbbašehpetgo dii veahki? 3. Jorggihehpetgo? 4. Gos dii gávppašehpet? 5. Goas dii boradehpet? 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6581 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 84 of 541 10 December 2011 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | ||
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For simple texts, ymmärrä suomea is awesome. There's audio too!
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7140 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 85 of 541 11 December 2011 at 12:22am | IP Logged | ||
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Kiitti muistutuksesta. Unohdin "Ymmärrä suomea"n
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| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7140 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 86 of 541 16 December 2011 at 6:52am | IP Logged | ||
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FINNISH
I've just worked through Chapter 18 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points pluperfect and conditional. *** NORTHERN SAAMI I have completed Chapter 15 of Davvin 2 (i.e. the third chapter of this volume) and among other things was introduced formally to stress, shown declension of nouns whose form in accusative/genitive singular has an odd number of syllables and affirmative present tense dual for verbs whose infinitives are of an odd number of syllables. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone). 1) For purposes of stress placement, a word in Northern Saami is thought of as a sequence of sylllables where main stress falls on the first one and the following one or two syllables are often unstressed. This arrangement means that words with four or more syllables almost always must have two stressed syllables at minimum where primary stress would be on the first syllable and secondary stress (i.e. somewhat less prominent than primary stress but distinct from unstressed) would be on the third or fourth syllable). 2) Declension for stems with an odd number of syllables differs from that of stems with an even number of syllables. The stem is the form in the accusative/genitive singular and this means that the number of syllables in the basic form (i.e. nominative singular) cannot be relied upon to determine whether one declines the word per the pattern for stems of an odd number of syllables or an even number of them. However, many words that consist of several syllables are analyzed for purposes of stress placement and declension as components of an even number of syllables. The preceding 14 chapters have focused on learning declension of stems with an even number of syllables. The chapter introduced the full declension for such nouns in singular as well as in the plural for nominative and accusative/genitive (and essive) E.g. tráktor (nom. sg. - 2 syllables but not very relevant for determining the required pattern) tráktora (acc./gen. sg. - 3 syllables and relevant for determining the required pattern) tráktorii (ill. sg. - stem's -a becomes -i) tráktoris (loc. sg. - stem's -a becomes -i) tráktoriin (com. sg. - stem's -a becomes -i) tráktorin (ess. sg./pl. - attach euphonic -i- before the essive's -n. The euphonic vowel is required for a nom. sg. word that ends in a consonant) tráktorat (nom. pl.) tráktoriid (acc./gen. pl. - stem's -a becomes -i) Note the complication of changing the stem's final -a in some cases. It seems that learners must memorize which words behave in this way as simply glancing at the form in nominative singular (the "basic" form) doesn't give a clue that the word's stem will have an odd number of syllables. In comparison, an example of partial declension for a word with a stem of an even number of syllables is as follows: mánná (nom. sg.) máná (acc./gen. sg. - -nn- ~ -n-) mánnái (ill. sg.) mánás (loc. sg.) mánáin (com. sg.) mánnán (ess. sg./pl.) mánát (nom. pl.) mánáid (acc./gen. pl.) However once having determined what the stem is, the learner still must apply the rules about changing diphthongs or final vowels in the stem in certain cases (e.g. change of stem's final -e or -u in comitative singular as shown in Chapter 11) Main point: Be prepared to do some hard work when learning inflection in Northern Saami. There may not be as many tenses as in Spanish or cases as in Hungarian, but the intricacies in inflection as governed by the stem's number of syllables and/or its vowels are not be taken lightly. 3) Affirmative present tense dual for verbs whose infinitives have an odd number of syllables is marked by adding suffixes to a stem that is "strong" like the infinitive. E.g. oahpahit "to teach" moai oahpahetne (N.B. add -etne to stem oahpah-) doai oahpaheahppi (add -eahppi to stem oahpah-) soai oahpaheaba (add -eaba to stem oahpah-) See 3) in entry for Chapter 7 and 1) in entry for Chapter 14 for rest of conjugation of verbs with an odd-number of syllables. Vocabulary of Chapter 15 (N.B. This chapter contains some a few terms specific to reindeer-herding) ađa - "marrow" biđus - "frying"; (a dish that is made of fried strips of seasoned meat, often that of a reindeer Cf. báistebiđus "sautéed reindeer") birrasiid - "approximately" čearpmat - (reindeer that is of the age between the first and second fall that it has lived through) doaivut - "to believe", "to suppose", "to think" duhpát - "tobacco" duoldat - "to boil" gárdi - (enclosure for selected reindeer) isit - "host", "landlord" mális - "meal" miessi - "calf" njuovadit - "to slaughter" njuovčča - "tongue" oahpis - "known" vuoššat - "to cook" (vuoš'šat) vihttanuppelogát - "fifteenth" vuoivvas - "liver" Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises 1. Dá lea mu beana. 2. Mun vuoššan dasa vuoivasa. 3. Ieš mun boran njuokčama. 4. In mun beatnagii vuošša njuokčama. 5. Isit dat borrá njuokčama ja bierggu. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7140 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 87 of 541 25 December 2011 at 9:08am | IP Logged | ||
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FINNISH
I've just worked through Chapter 19 of "Mastering Finnish" and learned among other points comitative, instructive and past passive. I have now completed this course and have decided to continue my studies as biased to standard language. Most of the authentic material in Finnish that I want to tackle is in standard language, while knowing colloquial language is more important for "fitting in" among friends, making sense of my Finnish friends' banter on their Facebook walls or eavesdropping on idle chatter. For this I'm willing to change my approach so far by using the videos for Kuulostaa hyvältä and/or Supisuomea. I already have the textbook for the former while the latter's exercises, notes and transcripts are on its website. *** NORTHERN SAAMI I have completed Chapter 16 of Davvin 2 (i.e. the fourth chapter of this volume) and among other things was introduced to contracting stems in present tense, more about dual subjects, and vowel length. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone). 1) Contracted verbs (translation of Finnish: supistumaverbit) as introduced in the chapter are verbs that have two stems for conjugating in the present tnese. A contracted verb's infinitive ends with -át, -et or -ot I am not quite sure why these verbs are labelled this way. A more transparent term for me for these verbs could have been "j-stems" since they behave very similarly to verbs with infinitives of an odd number of syllables but also add -j to the stem for first person dual and third person plural. I don't really see much in the way of "contracting". E.g. diŋgot "to order" (form stem by removing final -t i.e. diŋgo-) mun diŋgon don diŋgot son diŋgo moai diŋgojetne (N.B. add -j- between stem and personal ending) doai diŋgobeahtti soai diŋgoba mii diŋgot (N.B. looks just like infinitive) dii diŋgobehtet sii diŋgojit (N.B. add -j- between stem and personal ending) N.B. As with infinitives with an odd number of syllables, there's no consonant gradation in conjugation. 2) To indicate a dual subject, one can use the appropriate dual personal pronoun with the name of the second person in comitative. moai Máhtiin... "we-two Máhtte-[comitative]" ~ "Máhte and I..." 3) Northern Saami uses long vowels but these aren't always marked in spelling or used in quicker speech. Some of the vocalic alternations also reflect changes in length. In some instances the "improper" pronunciation leading to shorter and different vowels has become standard over what would be used per the rules. The alternations that often show this phenomenon are: i ~ e and u ~ o E.g. Mun human Davvisámegiella juohke beaivve (instead of "proper" beaivvi) "I speak Northern Saami every day" Vocabulary of Chapter 16 buohcci - "sick" buohkat - "everyone" čoavjebávččas - "stomach ache" dálkkas - "medicine" feber - "fever" gillet - "to be able to" (gil'let) golgodávda - "contagious disease"; "epidemic" gossat - "to cough" guhttanuppelogát - "sixteenth" heajat - "wedding" hui - "very" lávet - "to be used to", "to tend to" -nai - (suffix for emphasis or repetition) nuorvu - "common cold" oaivebávččas - "headache" riŋget - "to call by telephone" tábleahtta - "tablet" veadjit - "to manage", "to be able" veallát - "to lie down" (veal'lát) Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises 1. Mun in gil'le bargat maidege. 2. Doai fertebeahtti vuolgit jos áigubeahtti boahtit odne ruoktut. 3. Sii čohkkájit kafeas juohke beaivve. 4. Son láve čuoigat juohke beaivve. 5. Veal'lábehtetgo dii seaŋggas vel diibmu ovccis? Boldog Karácsonyt! / Wesołych Świąt! / Buorrit juovllát! / Veselé Vianoce! / Hyvää joulua! 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||
| Kafea Groupie United States Joined 4916 days ago 78 posts - 98 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Smi | Message 88 of 541 27 December 2011 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | ||
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I print your learning notes. Thank you so much!
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