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Chung at work / Chung pri práci

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PaulLambeth
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 Message 73 of 541
30 October 2011 at 3:17pm | IP Logged 
I'm admiring that you've been learning Northern Sámi, and so rigorously. I visited the Sámi (not sure which region) when I was very young, and like a lot of holidays I was on when I was young, I want to repeat them knowing what I know now about the people. Do you plan to go to Lappland at all to use it? I can see the merit in learning it for its rarity all the same.



Chung
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 Message 74 of 541
30 October 2011 at 7:14pm | IP Logged 
PaulLambeth wrote:
Do you plan to go to Lappland at all to use it? I can see the merit in learning it for its rarity all the same.


More accurately it should be about whether I would go again.

I did spend some time this year around Lake Inari and had a good time, but apart from the natural beauty and my successful raiding of the gift shops for learning material for Saamic, I'm not sure if I'd revisit because it was pretty expensive. At times I also felt a little bored because I knew no one in Inari. If I were to go back, I'd do it if a friend were already there or even better I could somehow wrangle a way to meet some Saami.

In the meantime, I want to pick up enough Northern Saami so that I could at least get the gist of some texts (with a little help from the Northern Saami-Finnish dictionary) and maybe even begin to understand the kids' show Manaid-TV since the Norwegian subtitles don't help me.



PaulLambeth
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 Message 75 of 541
30 October 2011 at 11:23pm | IP Logged 
Beautiful! If only my life were so simple as to 'get up and go' I'd suggest going with you for a bit next summer.

Chung wrote:
Norwegian subtitles don't help me.


A couple of the websites you've linked to have had translations or instructions only in Norwegian/Swedish - does that mean you've been using a translator to help you through those exercises? Or do you have a passive understanding of those for short phrases? I can understand the shorter phrases from Icelandic and a bit of German, but when it comes to TV subtitles, I, too, am stumped.

Keep it going anyway, and try to get into contact with some Sámi. I don't know how many who speak it properly have an identifiable internet presence, but it should be possible especially if you have connections in Finland. Might help for a return trip.



Chung
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 Message 76 of 541
31 October 2011 at 12:25am | IP Logged 
To be honest, I haven't used online resources from Norway or Sweden very much since my inability to make much of the Norwegian/Swedish instructions or subtitles is a turn-off. My ability in German helps me to decipher a few bits but not more.

I did get in contact after my trip with a teacher of Inari Saami but she's had her hands full with teaching. In any case, I'm happy to plough independently through the language for now.

Although it's possible that I'd return to Sápmi, I'm more keen to take in first some places in western and eastern Finland which I have not yet visited.



Chung
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 Message 77 of 541
05 November 2011 at 7:38am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just worked through Chapter 11 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points direct objects and simple past tense.

***

NORTHERN SAAMI

I have completed Chapter 10 of Davvin 1 and was introduced to a couple more instances of consonant gradation, alternations for diphthongs and conjugation for present tense dual for verbs with infinitives of an even number of syllables. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone).

1) Three additional examples of consonant gradation

"Strong" versus "weak"
-pm- ~ -m-
-rg- ~ -rgg-
-ŧŧ- ~ -ŧ-


2) One must apply one of four alternations in diphthongs under certain conditions

The alternations are:

-ea- ~ -e-
-ie- ~ -i-
-oa- ~ -o-
-uo- ~ -u-


Two of the conditions that invoke these alternations are:

i) Expressing the illative singular in nominals ending with -a or -u in nominative singular

E.g.

deadja ~ dedjii
biergu ~ birgui


ii) Expressing the 1st person dual (i.e. moai "we two") present tense in a verb with an infinitive of an even number of syllables.

E.g.

boahtit ~ moai bohte
vuolgit ~ moai vulge


3)The dual present tense affirmative for verbs with infinitives of 2, 4 or 6 syllables is usually marked by modifying a stem that is in "strong" grade like the infinitive

E.g.

doalvut "to take away" (N.B. stem here will be doalvu-)
moai dolvo "two of us take away" (N.B. -oa- diphthong in stem loses a; final -u of stem becomes -o)
doai doalvubeahtti "two of you take away" (N.B. just attach ending to stem)
soai doalvuba "two of them take away" (N.B. just attach ending to stem)

eallit "to live" (N.B. stem here will be ealli-)
moai elle "two of us live" (N.B. ea- diphthong in stem loses a; final -i of stem becomes -e)
doai eallibeahtti "two of you live" (N.B. just attach ending to stem)
soai ealliba "two of them live" (N.B. just attach ending to stem)

juhkat "to drink" (N.B. stem here will be juhka-)
moai juhke "two of us drink" (N.B. Final -a of stem becomes -e)
doai juhkabeahtti "two of you drink" (N.B. just attach ending to stem)
soai juhkaba "two of them drink" (N.B. just attach ending to stem)

The dual present tense affirmative of leat "to be" is classified with the pattern for verbs with infinitive of an odd number of syllables but is somewhat irregular anyway from these verbs.

moai letne "two of us are"
doai leahppi "two of you are"
soai leaba "two of them are"

Vocabulary of Chapter 10

álgit - "to start"
árvidit - "to guess"
-bat - (intensifying or emotional suffix)
bealli - "half"
čoahkkin - "meeting"
čoahkkinlatnja - "meeting room"
čuojahit - "to call [by telephone]"
diehko - "[to] there" (a place that's already been referred to)
doai - "you two"
fargga - "soon"
geat - "who" (nominative dual and plural)
goas - "when"
gos - "from where"; "where [stationary]"
guovttá - "in twos"
hoahppu - "haste"
logát - "tenth"
manni - "go [you two]!" (man'ni)
moai - "we two"
muhto - "but"
munnos - "at/in/on [the two of] us" (mun'nos)
na - "well" (interjection)
okto - "alone"
ovddas - "from the front, in the front"
ruoktut - "home(ward)"
soai - "they two"
Suopma - "Finland"

Numbers 121-136 (number of pages in the chapter)

čuođiguoktelogiokta - 121
čuođiguoktelogiguokte - 122
čuođiguoktelogigolbma - 123
čuođiguokteloginjeallje - 124
čuođiguoktelogivihtta - 125
čuođiguoktelogiguhtta - 126
čuođiguoktelogičieža - 127
čuođiguoktelogigávcci - 128
čuođiguoktelogiovcci - 129

čuođigolbmalogi - 130
čuođigolbmalogiokta - 131
čuođigolbmalogiguokte - 132
čuođigolbmalogigolbma - 133
čuođigolbmaloginjeallje - 134
čuođigolbmalogivihtta - 135
čuođigolbmalogiguhtta - 136

Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises.

- Borrabeahttigo doai?
- De borre! Juhkabeahttigo doai?
- De juhke!

- Boahtibeahttigo doai?
- De bohte! Vuolgibeahttigo doai?
- De vulge!

- Dál doai borrabeahtti.
- Na borre. Muhto soai juhkaba.

- Dál doai boahtibeahtti.
- Na bohte. Muhto soai vuolgiba.

Edited by Chung on 05 November 2011 at 8:55pm

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Chung
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 Message 78 of 541
07 November 2011 at 4:03am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just worked through Chapter 12 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points a couple of idiomatic uses of saada, temporal adverbs, and the comparative and superlative.

***

NORTHERN SAAMI

I have completed Chapter 11 of Davvin 1 and was introduced to a couple of points about a pair of clusters, the comitative singular and telling the time. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone).

1) Notes on clusters

"Strong" versus "weak"
-ibm- ~ -imm-

-rj- is pronounced as if there were a medial schwa. (i.e. -rəj-)

2) Comitative singular is marked by -in attached to the "weak" stem (with modifications to the stem under certain conditions)

When attached to proper names, the comitative suffix often translates "with sb" while when attached to nouns other than proper names, the suffix often translates "by way of sg" or "with the aid of sg".

The modifications are:

i) For weak stems ending in -i, the comitative singular suffix causes the diphthong to become a short vowel (see 2) in entry for Chapter 10)

E.g.

searvi "society" ("weak" stem is searvvi) ~ servviin (-ea- > -e-)
fuolki "kin, relative" ("weak" stem is fuolkki) ~ fulkkiin (-uo- > -u-)

ii) For stems that end in -e, the comitative singular suffix causes the final -e to become -i.

E.g.

Án'ne "Anne" ("weak" stem is Ánne) ~ Ánniin

iii) For stems that end in -o, the comitative singular suffix causes the final -o to become -u.

E.g.

suolu "island" ("weak" stem is sul'lo) ~ sul'luin

3) Telling the time is similar to structure in Finnish. See relevant log entry for comparison.

When telling the time, the numerals often remain in the nominative.

E.g.

Olugo diibmu lea? "What is the time?"
Diibmu lea okta "The time is one" ~ "It's one o'clock"
Diibmu lea vihtta badjel okta "The time is five past one"
Diibmu lea njealjádas badjel okta "The time is quarter past one"
Diibmu lea beal guokte "The time is half two" ~ "It's half past one"
Diibmu lea njealjádas váile guokte "The time is quarter to two"
Diibmu lea vihtta váile guokte "The time is five to two"

Galle áigge don boađát? "[At] what time are you coming?"
Mun boađán diibmu okta. "I'm coming at one o'clock"

An alternative to the last answer involves the number in genitive and preceding áigge

Mun boađán ovtta áigge "I'm coming at one o'clock"

4) Days of the week

mánnodat, disdat, gaskavahkku, duorastat, bearjadat, lávvordat, sotnabeaivi

When using them in time expressions, the days are in the genitive singular. To arrive at the genitive singular forms of days ending with -at, replace -at with -ga

E.g.

Odne lea mánnodat, muhto soai boahtiba duorastaga. "Today is Monday but the two of them will come on Thursday."
Vuolggátgo gaskavahku vai sotnabeaivvi? "Are you leaving on Wednesday or Sunday?"

Vocabulary of Chapter 11

áigi - "time"
badjel - "past" (for telling time only)
beaivet - "in the afternoon"
beal - "half[way to]" (for telling time only)
bearjadat - "Friday"
beassat - "to reach, arrive at"
diibmu - "time; clock"
disdat - "Tuesday"
duorastat - "Thursday"
dutnje - "you" (illative singular)
eahkedis - "in the evening"
fas - "again"
galle áigge - "[At] what time"
gaskavahkku - "Wednesday"
iđđes - "in the morning"
ihkku - "at night"
ihttin - "tomorrow"
ikte - "yesterday"
lávvordat - "Saturday"
man áigge - "[At] what time"
mánnodat - "Monday"
njealjádas - "quarter" (for telling time only)
odne - "today"
oktanuppelogát - "eleventh"
sadji - "space, place"
sotnabeaivi - "Sunday"
váile - "before, to" (for telling time only)
várta - "quarter" (for telling time only)

Numbers 137-150 (number of pages in the chapter)

čuođigolbmalogičieža - 137
čuođigolbmalogigávcci - 138
čuođigolbmalogiovcci - 139

čuođinjealljelogi - 140
čuođinjealljelogiokta - 141
čuođinjealljelogiguokte - 142
čuođinjealljelogigolbma - 143
čuođinjealljeloginjeallje - 144
čuođinjealljelogivihtta - 145
čuođinjealljelogiguhtta - 146
čuođinjealljelogičieža - 147
čuođinjealljelogigávcci - 148
čuođinjealljelogiovcci - 149

čuođivihttalogi - 150

Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises.

- Mánnodaga vuolggán Anárii. Vuolggán girdiin Helssegis njealjádas badjel vihtta beaivet ja boađán Avvilii logi badjel čieža eahkedis. Manan bussiin Avvilis Soađegillái diibmu gávcci eahkedis. Vuolggán maŋŋil Soađegilis Anárii bussiin. Bus'se vuolgá Soađegilis diibmu ovcci ja beassá Anárii njealjádas badjel logi eahkedis.
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Chung
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 Message 79 of 541
16 November 2011 at 4:30am | IP Logged 
FINNISH

I've just worked through Chapter 13 of "Mastering Finnish" and reviewed among other points ordinal numbers and inflection for certain word classes.

***

NORTHERN SAAMI

I have completed Chapter 12 of Davvin 1 and was introduced to a couple of points about a pair of clusters, the nominative plural, accusative/genitive plural and numerals. Here is my understanding of the chapter's main points (any misunderstandings of the material are mine alone).

1) Notes on clusters

"Strong" versus "weak"
-ddj- ~ -dj-
-hkk- ~ -hk-
-kc- ~ -vcc-
-kt- ~ -vtt-
-lv- ~ -lvv-


-lv- is pronounced with a medial schwa (i.e. -ləv-)

2) Nominative plural is marked by the suffix -t attached to the "weak" stem (i.e. form of the genitive/accusative singular). This process is similar to the one used in Estonian and Finnish.

E.g.
eadni "mother"; eatni "mother" (acc. sing.), "mother's" (gen. sing.); eatnit "mothers" (nom. plur.)
gávpi "shop"; gávppi "shop" (acc. sing.), "shop's" (gen. sing.); gávppit "shops" (nom. plur.)

Cf.

Estonian:
ema "mother"; ema "mother's" (gen. sing.); emad "mothers" (nom. sing.)
pood "shop"; poe "shop's" (gen. sing.); poed "shops" (nom. sing.)

Finnish:
äiti "mother"; äidin "mother's" (gen. sing.); äidit "mothers" (nom. sing.)
kauppa "shop"; kaupan "shop's" (gen. sing.); kaupat "shops" (nom. sing.)

N.B. Conventionally uncountable foodstuffs that are comprised of smaller units can be expressed in plural when referring to the units in plural. In other words, these refer to the grains, leaves, powder or grounds that make up the foodstuff.

E.g.

gáffe "coffee" (as a drink); gáfet "coffee beans"
sálti "salt"; sálttit "grains of salt"

3) Accusative/genitive plural is marked by the suffix -id attached to the "weak" stem (i.e. form of the genitive/accusative singular) as in 2). However this suffix alters the "weak" stem under certain conditions.

i) If the "weak" stem ends in -e, then change it to -i before -id

E.g.

Válddán bastte. "I'm taking a spoon."
Válddán basttiid. "I'm taking spoons.", "I'm taking the spoons."

ii) If the "weak" stem ends in -o, then change it to -u before -id

E.g.
Válddán ruvnno. "I'm taking a kroner."
Válddán ruvnnuid. "I'm taking some kroners.", "I'm taking the kroners."

iii) If the "weak" stem ends in -i, then the stem's diphthong "simplifies" (i.e. becomes a "pure" vowel) (see 2) in entry for Chapter 10 for diphthongs' alternations)

E.g.

Ozan fuolkki "I'm looking for a relative.", "I'm looking for the relative." etc.
Ozan fulkkiid "I'm looking for relatives.", "I'm looking for the relatives." etc.

N.B. The direct object in Northern Saami is always in genitive/accusative.

4) Nouns preceded by galle or 2 and greater are in accusative/genitive singular. The corresponding verb is in third person plural.

E.g.

Galle moni dus leat? "How many eggs do you have?" ("How many egg's you-[locative singular] are?")
Mus leat golbma moni. "I have three eggs." ("I-[locative singular] are three egg's")

5) The nominative and accusative forms for "one" are distinct but those of higher numerals are not.

Dá lea okta monni. "Here is one egg."
Boran ovtta moni. "I'm eating one egg."

Dá leat golbma moni. "Here are three eggs."
Boran golbma moni. "I am eating three eggs."

Vocabulary of Chapter 12

áddjá - "grandfather"
báhkka - "package"
bargat - "to do work", "to make"
buktit - "to bring"
buot - "all"
čallit - "to write"
dadjat - "to say"
dalle - "at that time", "then" (dal'le)
diŋgot - "to order"
fuolki - "kin", "relative"
galle - "how many/much" (gal'le)
gálvu - "stuff"
guoktenuppelogát - "twelfth"
jáffut - "flour"
kilo - "kilogram"
láibut - "to bake"
lákca - "cream"
mánná - "child"
min - "our"
monni - "egg"
oabbá - "sister"
olbmot - "people"
olu - "much"
sálti - "salt"
sohkargáhkku - "sugar cake"

Numbers 151-169 (number of pages in the chapter)

čuođivihttalogi - 150
čuođivihttalogiokta - 151
čuođivihttalogiguokte - 152
čuođivihttalogigolbma - 153
čuođivihttaloginjeallje - 154
čuođivihttalogivihtta - 155
čuođivihttalogiguhtta - 156
čuođivihttalogičieža - 157
čuođivihttalogigávcci - 158
čuođivihttalogiovcci - 159

čuođiguhttalogi - 160
čuođiguhttalogiokta - 161
čuođiguhttalogiguokte - 162
čuođiguhttalogigolbma - 163
čuođiguhttaloginjeallje - 164
čuođiguhttalogivihtta - 165
čuođiguhttalogiguhtta - 166
čuođiguhttalogičieža - 167
čuođiguhttalogigávcci - 168
čuođiguhttalogiovcci - 169

Examples of Northern Saami taken from my answers to the exercises.

1. Áhkku lea gávppis.
2. Máhtti ja Máret leat goađis.
3. Biera boahtá skuvllas.
4. Iŋgá boahtá bussiin Guovdageainnus.
5. Joavnna lea biillas.
6. Guossit leat stobus.
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Chung
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 Message 80 of 541
16 November 2011 at 5:18am | IP Logged 
I have now completed "Davvin 1" and plan to reorganize my accumulated notes and review for the next few days before starting "Davvin 2". At some point during my studies with the latter I plan to do some reading of short texts of Northern Saami.

I came away with the following impressions after having finished "Davvin 1":

1) As I had found out while studying Inari Saami, at least some background in Finnish is very helpful not only because of the inherent "discount" but because of the learning materials that are available that use Finnish as an intermediary language. I haven't yet used my Northern Saami <> Finnish dictionary but I feel better having it on my shelf. The "Davvin" series is available only in Norwegian, Swedish and Finnish.

2) Like Inari Saami, Northern Saami relies heavily on fusional typology to makes morphological distinctions as noticeable with its many vocalic and consonantal alternations. A learner can find it very difficult to get used to this method and may be forced to do much memorization or drilling to master the forms and so express him/herself correctly in Northern Saami. However I've appreciated the more systematic and detailed approach taken by "Davvin 1" regarding the alternations. "Sämikielâ 1" did not normally provide sufficient guidance to understanding the same phenomena in Inari Saami thus leaving me rather frustrated.

3) A couple of flaws of "Davvin 1" are the typos and incosistencies between a few recorded exercises and the text. In addition, independent learners may be slightly annoyed by there being some exercises that require the presence of partners or classmates to function. Anyone setting out to learn Northern Saami to at least high beginner's level should at minimum use "Davvin 1" and "Davvin 2". I believe that introductory study of Northern Saami via "Davvin 1" alone is insufficient as among other gaps the volume does not teach the conjugations for plural subjects (indeed the negative conjugations in dual and plural are not introduced until "Davvin 2") nor does it introduce the plural forms of the illative, locative, comitative. "Davvin 2" (and the subsequent two volumes) also contains appendicies with comprehensive lists and succint notes on alternations and inflection. "Davvin 1" lacks such reference material.

If the budget permits, getting "Davvin 4" is desirable if only for its appendices which are more comprehensive than those in vols. 2 and 3 as "Davvin 4's" cover all main grammatical topics taught in the series


***

Nevertheless "Davvin 1" is still a fairly usable resource for the independent learner provided one's ability to read in and listen to Finnish, Norwegian or Swedish (depending on the version) is sufficient to understand the explanations and instructions. The bulk of the exercises being linked to answers in the answer key is a significant benefit. The Finnish versions of the course can be bought from Sami Duodji ry at 16.50 Euros per level (not including shipping and customs). Folkeuniversitetet Nettstudier uses the Norwegian version of the material as a part of a correspondence course but it is not clear to me if one can order the material for private use.

Edited by Chung on 25 November 2011 at 5:04pm



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