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Japanese from scratch TAC 2015 東亜 | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4977 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes  Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 329 of 1702 17 May 2012 at 5:31am | IP Logged |
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I got RTK 2 today along with another book that looked good - Japanese Core Words and Phrases. They both
look interesting. I haven't really heard good things about RTK 2 but I'm still very curious about it. I only glanced so far. The introduction claims to organize the kanji into groups to make it easier to learn the sounds. I don't know how effective that'll be. I do think that unless I sit down and study the the sounds for the kanji that it'll be very slow indeed to learn them. I could see myself learning kanji for words and memorizing them just like the stories for the individual kanjis but still not knowing the sounds for individual kanji. So I'm going to attempt this anyway. I'm guessing in a few weeks. I wanna more or less finish off RTK 1 and I'm not sure how long it'll take. It's tons easier now than it was back in Dec/Jan when I first did it. But it's still like 2000 cards in the deck. I've gotten through like 400ish so far in the past couple days. They'll start reapearing in a day or so I think most of them are 3 days before they show up again it varies some. If I get them right the 1st time again they will be pushed back quite a bit. I'm pretty happy with the N3 deck I'm doing. I think the words are quite useful. I just finished doing the due ones for today. I will be adding more to the deck I'm sure this weekend. I usually add words on the weekend and then attempt to fight it off over the week. It's a lot easier without the Japanese course to get through the deck. I often just skipped it but without the course doing it every day isn't a problem at all. I'm slowly getting through a deck I made of example sentences from chapter 1 of the text book for next fall. They're basically grammar examples so they're really good. Understanding anime is going well. I am leaving subs up but my brain is really good about not tuning out the Japanese it doesn't take much discipline at all to tune it in I think soon I won't be able to tune it out. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6413 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 330 of 1702 17 May 2012 at 7:53am | IP Logged |
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RTK 2 divides things up into pure groups where any kanji containing a certain "signal primitive" have the same pronunciation, semi-pure groups and mixed groups. Then it has a bunch of kanji that it just gives common words, which is the same way you'd learn them without the book.
I think the book is reasonably useful, but I'll give you one word of warning. With the "pure groups," don't take it for granted that they really are pure. You will find when you get to RTK3 that many of them suddenly become semi-pure. And the same if you learn some kanji that are in RTK. So with pure groups, just assume that most of the time, the signal primitive will give the right pronunciation, but not always. Of course, you will gradually learn those kanji in context anyway, so a combination of RTK2 and context will take you pretty far. And if you think you can get away with only the kanji in RTK1, forget it. Even in books for children, like "Harry Potter," there are all kinds of kanji that go beyond RTK1. I recommend when you are ready to start reading, that a book like Harry Potter, or something at a similar level (preferably a book you are already familiar with) is a good place to start. You get quite a few kanji in Harry Potter, so having learned them from Heisig really helps with understanding the meaning. But at the same time, you get furigana on most of them, so you know how to pronounce them as well. 2 persons have voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4977 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 331 of 1702 19 May 2012 at 7:41am | IP Logged |
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I'm putting RTK 2 aside for a bit. I scanned it into my ipad and read it some but I think my time is better spent
on vocabulary. I do change my mind so I might go back to it. The plan right now is to pickup pronunciations from kanji base don the vocab I'm studying. I vary how I do this - sometimes I write out the kanji and furigana while studying, sometimes do it in my head. Staying up with the reviews for my N3 deck is a pain. I was pretty excited at first since a lot of new words seemed to stick easily. They made sounds that reminded me of something in English or someone's name or something though and there's a lot of words that aren't sticking as easily. I'm trying writing them out in hiragana / kanji etc. It's frustrating. Patience is generally the key so if I get through the reviews I'm sure it'll all be good. I don't think I was able to convince anyone else in the class to try out heisig. A bit of a bummer. I liked it a lot and find it really helpful but maybe it's not for everyone. I guess you just pick up the kanji gradually anyway without learning the primitives/radicals. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Gitaa Brother Newbie United States Joined 4894 days ago 23 posts - 33 votes Speaks: English* | Message 332 of 1702 19 May 2012 at 9:00am | IP Logged |
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I had a lot of success with RTK 2 by inserting the sample words into Anki in the order given in the book. You will always know at least one of the characters in a word. At the beginning, because one of the characters will be one of the pure groups, and later on, because one of the characters will be one you have already learned. I wrote up a list of 50 words a day, and the reading I did know and the word's position on the list were enough that I didn't need any further mnemonics (I did cut the Anki default time in half from 7 to 4 days I think). It took about a hundred hours, less than half the time I needed for RTK 1 which was suprising, and afterwards I could pretty much figure out the On reading of any word I came across. Very specifically, every day I would:
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| Woodsei Bilingual Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member United States justpaste.it/Woodsei Joined 4590 days ago 614 posts - 782 votes Speaks: English*, Arabic (Egyptian)* Studies: Russian, Japanese, Hungarian | Message 333 of 1702 19 May 2012 at 4:36pm | IP Logged |
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I have to agree with Gitaa Brother. At first I didn't want to use RTK 2 at all after
seeing how dry it looked, and it felt like rote memorization, which is the exact reason why I stayed away from studying kanji the traditional rote way and used Heisig. I also learn better from context, like sentences and reading. But then I thought, if I input the words into Anki, and treat it as something like Reading the Kanji site, it would be fun and beneficial. Plus I would be learning vocab. I experimented a bit with a list of 100 words in the order of the book, and they seemed to go pretty well. Sometimes I'd add in a short and easy sentence from Tangorin just to help things, but the focus was on the kanji reading really, not the example sentence. You could give it a shot, but if you feel that your time is better spent on other methods, or other things like vocab and immersion, then stick to what you do best. The readings/sounds will be learned eventually, whichever way you go. I just think RTK 2 should be given a second chance, because if you tailor it to how you study, it could really save lots of time later down the road. I don't follow the book's method, but I do extract the words in the same order and use them in my own way, which works pretty well. Good luck with whatever you choose to do. Your log is really fun and informative to follow. Edited by Woodsei on 19 May 2012 at 4:37pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4977 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 334 of 1702 20 May 2012 at 6:04am | IP Logged |
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I think I'll give RTK 2 a try. Two people saying that it's good is generally good enough for me and I like the
idea of being able to sound out any kanji written word I see (would make using a dictionary loads easier for printed material.) I was looking at the Heisig app I already have for ios and it looks good for this. I won't need stories or anything so the lack of stories won't hurt the app. And I could use this as a good way study RTK 1 going the opposite direction IE seeing the kanji and remembering the meaning. I haven't done that (and stuck with it) yet. I'm actually still finishing RTK 1 though. I'm on 1800ish kanji. There's mostly hard ones left to do I guess but having studied Japanese this long just visually memorizing a kanji is loads easier for me now. Working on it now and it's weird I haven't added new kanji or studied new primitives in ages. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| kraemder Senior Member United StatesRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 4977 days ago 1497 posts - 1648 votes Speaks: English* Studies: German, Spanish, Japanese | Message 335 of 1702 20 May 2012 at 9:25am | IP Logged |
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I'm a strange person. Who else after finishing their spaced repetitions that they didn't want to do, already
after bed time, would go on to do the RTK deck that didn't matter? I haven't done RTK in so long it's like an old friend. I need the review but man I need to get up at 4:50 am for work.. 1 person has voted this message useful | |
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6413 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 336 of 1702 20 May 2012 at 6:18pm | IP Logged |
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I'm starting to think maybe I should try putting RTK2 into Anki. I got a little frustrated just reading it and also found it hard to combine with the writing part. Heisig has his suggestions for flashcards where he has everything on one card, but that was a little too complicated for me. But making a deck just for readings sounds like it could work.
1 person has voted this message useful |
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