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Pronunciation mistakes that irritate you | ||
Tags: Error | Pronunciation | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : General discussion |  | |
| Gosiak Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 4936 days ago 241 posts - 361 votes  Speaks: Polish*, English, German Studies: Norwegian, Welsh | Message 81 of 106 15 January 2012 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
In my previous post I tried to clarify why one may hear 'jr' instead of 'dr'. I guess that you are refering to the American song. If it is so then I agree with you, this 'r' sounds retroflex (like most of American r's). The use of 'English' is sometimes confusing me. When it comes to discussing phonology and phonetics I prefer RP,GA and other more precise names. It is surely different from our Polish trilled 'r'. :) Edited by Gosiak on 15 January 2012 at 5:15pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6407 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 82 of 106 15 January 2012 at 11:47pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5036 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 83 of 106 16 January 2012 at 12:15am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Whatever can be said about /dʒ/ and /d/ automatically translates to /tʃ/ and /t/, because they're simply voiced/unvoiced pairs, and voicing is an independent mechanism. So, /tʃ/ starts exactly like /t/. Unless of course someone else knows better and can explain why the same symbol is used in both places.
However, I'm not sure what you mean by 'also ... separate'. I never said that /dʒ/ is one sound that starts like /d/ (this part I said) AND morphs and ends like /ʒ/ (this part I didn't say), nor did I say it's two separate sounds put together. Frankly, I don't feel like dwelling into that kind of hair splitting, so I'll leave it to anyone who feels so inclined. Edit: reworded. Edited by mrwarper on 16 January 2012 at 12:22am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6407 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 84 of 106 16 January 2012 at 1:56am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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But /t/ and /d/ vary depending on the language. Is it supposed to start like the same language's /t/ or what do you mean? Many languages have dental t's, and I really can't pronounce /tʃ/ or /dʒ/ as dental, ie pressing my tongue against my teeth. (Might be possible, I suppose...) Edited by Serpent on 16 January 2012 at 1:58am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Gosiak Triglot Senior Member Poland Joined 4936 days ago 241 posts - 361 votes Speaks: Polish*, English, German Studies: Norwegian, Welsh | Message 85 of 106 16 January 2012 at 2:27am | IP Logged | ||||||||
I think that the same symbols are used because /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ affricates are 'produced on the basis' of /t/ and /d/ plosives. Pronuncing of plosives stops all airflow but if one allows the air to escape through a gap it will create friction responsible for /ʃ/ sound. The place of articulation also changes, it starts with alveoral and ends with posalveoral. The same symbols are used because this plosives are initial parts of respective affricates and using them makes clear the manner of articulation. Complete closure is closely followed with fricative release and it influences one airflow )it is pronunced as one sound). Edited by Gosiak on 16 January 2012 at 2:54am 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5036 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 86 of 106 16 January 2012 at 3:49am | IP Logged | ||||||||
So we basically agree on this :)
I didn't write the IPA but I think it wouldn't make sense to use one symbol to represent the English 't' and the same one to mean a different 't' start just because there's an additional sign following it. BTW, when I mention /t/ I assume it represents the English sound for 't', or I'd say otherwise. WRT to other languages variants of 't' and 'd' sounds... I only find IPA necessary to transcribe and clarify English pronunciation because of the 'crazy' spelling, and maybe comparisons. For other languages I've tried (German, Russian, Japanese), the local scripts/alphabet variants and some description of the phonetics were always more than enough, so I don't resort to anything else.
From my own and my Russian friends' experience, Russian 'hard t' and Spanish 't' (which is dental) are nearly indistinguishable by ear; I think the difference might be more noticeable palatalizing a dental 't' and comparing it to a soft Russian 't', but we've never tried that. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6407 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 87 of 106 16 January 2012 at 8:16am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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Sure, it's more useful for English than other languages you're studying, but English is not the only language with a crazy spelling:) Just the most commonly studied one:)
I personally prefer using IPA for learning a new sound system/spelling system. So much clearer that all these "like a in father" descriptions. And yeah, the Russian and Spanish /t/ are similar. And both are pretty different from the English /t/. I had pronounced tʃ 83467495797 times before I learned to pronounce alveolar t's, which is why these sounds are completely different for me, neither being a "base" for the other. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5036 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 88 of 106 16 January 2012 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I've been checking Wikipedia: IPA for Spanish and Wikipedia: Spanish phonology and besides not agreeing with some stuff said there, I was most surprised to find the same symbols we use for English used for Spanish variants which are different.
Apparently it is just a matter of convenience so that you don't need to keep extra strokes and you can type normal letters, but still I find that kind of self-defeating. WRT to descriptions like '/a/ as in father', well, yes; that's pretty cumbersome and can even be problematic if your language has one of those crazy spellings. I usually prefer something like this Russian sounds description, so far it worked like a charm with those who pay attention. In this particular case, I don't like that they label Russian sounds with a mixture of English and Russian letters (like 'oo' for 'y') and use some Cyrillic-based phonetic transcribing system, but I guess you can't have everything. Edited by mrwarper on 16 January 2012 at 3:21pm 2 persons have voted this message useful |
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