Pronunciation mistakes that irritate you (General discussion) Language Learning Forum

Pronunciation mistakes that irritate you
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IronFist
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Message 25 of 106

11 January 2012 at 10:35pm | IP Logged

Solfrid Cristin wrote:

HEY! This is cheating. You were supposed to bring your own mistakes to the ball, not somebody else's. But I now learned I make another mistake. I pronounce nose with an s, because with a z it sounds like knows. Oh well, another thing to learn.

"nose" and "knows" are pronounced the same :)

There's a saying from something (I forgot the source), "the nose knows" referring to identifying something by its smell.
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IronFist
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Message 26 of 106

11 January 2012 at 10:40pm | IP Logged

FWIW, I know native English speakers who cannot pronounce "sixth" correctly.

For example, say "he's in sixth grade." Sometimes the "th" gets kinda dropped and the "x" becomes slightly longer than the "x" in "six."

So it sounds almost like you're saying "he's in six grade" except with a slightly elongated "x". Again, I wish I had a microphone, because I can't explain it over text.

Or, you could just say it the Canadian English way: "he's in grade six." :)

And a LOT of people say "fith" instead of "fifth."
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IronFist
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Message 27 of 106

11 January 2012 at 10:51pm | IP Logged

hrhenry wrote:

IronFist wrote:

In (American) English, initial "tr" is basically the same as "chr."

Truck = Chruck.

Tree = Chree

Initial "dr" = "jr"

Drunk = jrunk

Maybe in some parts of the US, but not all. I certainly don't ever remember learning or pronouncing those words like that.

R.
==

I may actually have to get a microphone so I can record some examples of this.

I remember a thread a few years ago where a few of us were arguing over this topic and someone else came in and said we were both describing the same thing in a different way.

I've never heard anyone pronounce "tree" as "t + ree." That would be like a very fast "tur-ree" (my apologies, I can't explain it very well with words... but I could do it if I had a microphone). Say "tur-ree" so quickly that it's only one syllable. That would be a weird way of saying "tree," which would be actually pronouncing it the way it's written.

Now say "chree." That, to my ears, is how everyone regardless of regional accent, pronounces "tree" in America.

That's the best way I can describe it without using audio.

Same thing with dr -> jr.

Take the word "drink." No one pronounces it as "dr-rink" (one syllable). That would be weird sounding and would be pronounced right at the front of the mouth. I might say it that way if I was imitating a French accent. But in English, it's always "jrink."

Now don't misunderstand, it's not a super powerful aspirated J where a large puff of air escapes the lips before the "R" sound, but it's definitely a "j."

Say the word "drink" really slowly. It will sound like "jrrrrr-ink."

Maybe I need to dig up a mic and post audio examples so you more experienced people can tell me what I'm trying to describe here because I don't know the technical terms.
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IronFist
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Message 28 of 106

11 January 2012 at 10:59pm | IP Logged

I found the other thread where tree = chree was being discussed:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=19739&PN=39&TPN=5

Here are the relevant portions:

Quote:

Volte wrote:

IronFist wrote:

Johntm wrote:

IronFist wrote:

Levi wrote:

We have a similar phenomenon in English, where an "s" sound immediately followed by a "y" sound will be pronounced like "sh". At least in my dialect, I say "sh" in:

"Bless you."
"What's your problem?"
"tissue" (not TISS-yoo)

I also say "ch" instead of "t" + "y" in:

"Don't you see?"
"You hurt your head."
"saturate" (not SAT-yer-ate)

In certain words, this phonetic shift has occurred across all dialects: "mission", "special", "appreciate", "question", "righteous", etc. People no longer say "MISS-ee-on", "SPESS-ee-al", "a-PREE-see-ate", "QUEST-ee-on", "RIGHT-ee-ous".

Wow, you're right!

I've also noticed that "tree" starts with a "ch" sound, and "drunk" starts with a "J" sound.

I noticed the latter of those two in high school when someone asked "how do you spell 'drunk'?" And another person replied "D-R-U-N-K." And the girl who asked said, embarrassed, "oh, I thought it started with a J."

Where do you live? Here in the South tree starts with a "tr" sound and drunk starts with a "dr" sound.

Everywhere. My mom is from the south and she says it that way. My dad is from Minnesota and he says it that way. I live in Chicago and everyone here says it that way. Same in California when I go visit relatives out there.

If you actually try to say "tree" with a T and then an R sound, it becomes a 2 syllable word unless you pronounce it at the very front of your mouth, in which case it sounds funny. I think that's why it shortens to "chree." I wish I had a microphone on my computer. I'd record myself saying "go plant a chree" and no one would notice anything funny about it :D

I say 'tree' with a tr. It's one syllable, and it's very near the front of my mouth. My regional variation of English in general seems to be quite front - I've lamented before about how it has no back vowels, for instance.

And then egill posted:

Quote:

I believe the disagreement between IronFist and Johntm arises (and please correct me if I'm wrong!) from the fact that they are talking about the same sound. That is they both say something like [tʃɹi] and [dʒɹʌŋk]. In fact I don't think I've ever heard a native speaker who doesn't say them in those ways.

The problem is Johntm writes 'tr' to mean the affricate 'tʃ' (which would be written 'ch' in normal orthography hence the "chree" example) and Ironfist is taking 'tr' to mean literally a 't' sound followed by an 'r' sound, something like "tuhree" [təɹi]. Ditto with 'dr' and 'dʒ' (which can be written 'j' as in "judge" hence "jrunk").

We have only our wonderfully irregular orthography to blame.

And also at the bottom of page 1 in this thread:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?T ID=9822&PN=44&TPN=1

Chelovek posted:

Quote:

An English "r" sound is basically formed by making an "Ah" sound, and thenx pulling your tongue back a bit, and then lifitng it up toward the roof of your mouth. It should kind of just hang in the middle of your mouth.

If you need a reference point for what "r" should sound like: it's identical to the word "are" (many people pronounce "our" the same way as well, though that depends on where you're from).

But remember, that's just for the common "r" sound, usually when it's near vowels. As someone else mentioned, if it's near t or d, the combined consonsants have a "chr" or "djr" sound. (ie. tree=[chree] and drill=[djrill])

Anyway, yeah.
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hrhenry
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Message 29 of 106

11 January 2012 at 11:00pm | IP Logged

IronFist wrote:

I may actually have to get a microphone so I can record some examples of this.

I understand exactly what you're saying. My point was that not everyone in the US pronounces these words that way, nor have they learned them that way.

Quote:

Now say "chree." That, to my ears, is how everyone regardless of regional accent, pronounces "tree" in America.
...
Say the word "drink" really slowly. It will sound like "jrrrrr-ink."

Totally disagree. That may be how you hear it, but that's not how everyone hears or pronounces it.

R.
==

Edited by hrhenry on 11 January 2012 at 11:01pm
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Cainntear
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Message 30 of 106

12 January 2012 at 11:20am | IP Logged

IronFist wrote:

In (American) English, initial "tr" is basically the same as "chr."

That seems highly unlikely to me.

English T and D are both highly compatible with R, because they use the same points of articulation -- tip of the tongue + alveolar ridge.

CH and J/DGE use the middle of the tongue, and the tip isn't near the alveolar ridge. This makes CHR and JR extremely difficult to pronounce with no intervening vowel.

The T in TR is made to sound slightly different from normal because T is usually aspirated (puff of air after the main consonant sound) but it loses its aspiration when followed by another consonant. But a de-aspirated T doesn't sound like CH to me....
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Solfrid Cristin
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Message 31 of 106

12 January 2012 at 2:12pm | IP Logged

I am getting a flash back to 30 years back in time. I was on a train in Zwitserland, talking to a local guy, and used the word forest. He asked me what a forest was, and I answered that a forest is a lot of trees. He looked puzzled at me, so I tried to draw it. No, still no understanding. Then the train suddenly drove past some trees, and I pointed to them. He then laughed and laughed, and said that he thougt I had said a lot of cheese.

Ok. so I know we were in the right country for it, but did he really think I was talking about a cheese fondue? :-)

Edited by Solfrid Cristin on 12 January 2012 at 2:14pm
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mrwarper
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Message 32 of 106

12 January 2012 at 2:29pm | IP Logged

Is "Zwitserland" another example of how you (or me or apparently many foreign English speakers) are unclear when it comes to /s/ vs /z/? ;)

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