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Chung at work / Chung pri práci | ||
Tags: Azerbaijani | Uzbek | Turkic languages | Uralic Languages | Slovak | Comic Strip/Cartoon | Serbian | Serbo-Croatian | Ukrainian | Croatian | Endangered Language | Linguistics | Hungarian | Finnish | Turkish | Polish | Korean | ||
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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| maxval Pentaglot Senior Member Bulgaria maxval.co.nr Joined 5070 days ago 852 posts - 1577 votes  Speaks: Hungarian*, Bulgarian, English, Spanish, Russian Studies: Latin, Modern Hebrew | Message 273 of 541 18 February 2013 at 8:51am | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Your version is emphatic and may be used in very, very rare situations. Normally it is: "Otthon leszel Karácsony előtt?"
Here is almost the same situation, the 2nd version is emphatic. However it may be used in more situations. The 2nd version makes emphasis over "together".
Here is the same emphasis. Normally it is "Tamás Katira gondol.". Your version says: it is exactly Thomas and not someone else who thinks about Kate.
The same. Normally it is: "Melletted állok. Te Kati mellett állsz." 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4556 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 274 of 541 18 February 2013 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
Your wish is my command. ;-)
Or alternatively: "Olemme kotona kylmän sään takia." While not exceedingly jarring to my ears, this doesn't sound like something a native speaker would say; I would instead expect something more like "Jäimme kotiin/sisälle..." (We stayed home/indoors). Still, it's good enough so it's probably best to keep it as it is, unless it sounds equally peculiar in the other languages, as well.
Joulusta lähtien minulla on ollut uusi auto. or Minulla on ollut uusi auto joulusta lähtien. -- This is the most neutral/standard word order, in my opinion.
Saavun / Olen perillä kolmen päivän kuluessa/päästä.
This, too, sounds a bit odd. I'd probably interpret the question as "Will you be coming home for Christmas?" or perhaps more specifically as "Will you make it home in time for Christmas?". Not sure how I'd fix it, as the word ennen is part of the problem here.
Hmm. It could be just me, but I think normally only yleisnimet (common nouns?) can take the abessive case. As a result, this sounds delightfully sexist. ;-) I'd consider choosing a different example sentence. How about "Tuomas lähti lomalle ilman matkalaukkua" / "Tuomas lähti lomalle matkalaukutta"?
Minä seison sinun vierelläsi. Note, however, that the word vierellä is is quite poetic–for the lack of a better word–and its use is generally limited to grand speeches, poetry and love songs. In most contexts the inessive vieressäsi, vieressä would be preferred. Edited by sans-serif on 18 February 2013 at 2:54pm 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6594 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 275 of 541 18 February 2013 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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What sort of corrections are you asking for?
Finnish: Olemme kotona kylmän sään vuoksi. the postposition use is correct, although takia might be more common. also, I might be wrong but olla feels too static here. I'd say "olemme jääneet kotiin kylmän sään takia". Finnish: Joulusta lähtien minulla on uusi auto. again, grammatically correct but i'd say "minulla on ollut". Estonian: Mina saabun kolme päeva pärast. Finnish: Minä pääsen kolmen päivän kuluessa. Northern Saami: Mun beasan golmma beaivvi geahčái. päästä is to make it, to get somewhere. should be saavun just like in Estonian. also kuluttua, not kuluessa. or kolmen päivän päästä. Finnish: Oletko kotona ennen joulua? i would say pääsetkö kotiin ennen joulua?/jäätkö kotiin jouluun asti? depending on the intended meaning. but again, grammatically correct of course. - Tuomas lähti Imatralle ilman Katria. - Tuomas lähti Imatralle Katritta. as you're including this, it also makes sense to include ystäviensä kanssa/ystävineen. Finnish: Minä seison sinun vierellesi. Sinä seisot Katrin vierellä. vierelläsi (probably just a typo) 2 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4556 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 276 of 541 18 February 2013 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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@Serpent:
You have a good eye for this sort of thing. :-) "Joulusta lähtien minulla on uusi auto" is indeed grammatical, but it refers to the future: "From Christmas onwards, I will have a new car." Perhaps that's what you meant. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6594 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 277 of 541 18 February 2013 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Oh. I didn't think of that, but in real life i'd understand it this way, yes. although i can't help looking for maybe unnecessary shades of meaning, like that the car is already yours but will only be in your possession after christmas or something. otherwise "joulun jälkeen ostan uuden auton" would be more natural :)
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| sans-serif Tetraglot Senior Member Finland Joined 4556 days ago 298 posts - 470 votes Speaks: Finnish*, English, German, Swedish Studies: Danish | Message 278 of 541 18 February 2013 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
My guess is that the word originally used was branding iron, which usually translates to polttorauta, I think. Polttava rauta sounds quite pompous to me: burning iron, searing heat, freezing cold—you get the feeling. I suppose you probably know this already, if you looked the word up, but tähystää more closely means something like "to look ahead" or "to spy" in the sense of the word spying glass. The look-out on a pirate ship, for example, is called a tähystäjä. Edited by sans-serif on 18 February 2013 at 3:28pm 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Serpent Octoglot Senior Member Russian Federation serpent-849.livejour Joined 6594 days ago 9753 posts - 15779 votes 4 sounds Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish | Message 279 of 541 18 February 2013 at 3:38pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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what do you mean originally used?
also as for the polish comics, imo the "we'll never beat them in football" sounds more depressing than it should be. it's more like, "we never beat them", which in sports implies that occasionally they do, but way too rarely. the way i understand it is [we fail to [beat them on on a regular basis]]. great one btw! 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||||||||||||||
| Chung Diglot Senior Member Joined 7153 days ago 4228 posts - 8259 votes 20 sounds Speaks: English*, French Studies: Polish, Slovak, Uzbek, Turkish, Korean, Finnish | Message 280 of 541 18 February 2013 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Kiitos kaikille selityksistä! / Köszönöm a magyarázatot!
The general idea is that I'm devising these sentences to illustrate various points in my guide for the Uralic languages. However they face constraints in that I translate a sentence in English whose elements I can reasonably deduce/find out in Estonian, Finnish, Northern Saami, Meadow Mari and/or Hungarian. Because my competency in these languages varies greatly, I'm however forced to keep the sentences as simple as possible and sometimes even crib closely off the English sentence, leading to sentences that can be still grammatical but at times unidiomatic. To make it clear, I am interested in any feedback about the sentences. It can vary from correction of ungrammatical elements or spelling errors to comments about style or the suitability. san-serif's comment about the appropriateness of the abessive is a good example of the latter and worthwhile for me. It's grammatical as far as I gathered from Karlsson's manual on grammar, Wikipedia, Uusi kielemme or Iso suomen kielioppi but in none of my references did I see even an oblique note that abessive is somehow stylistically odd or maybe even semantically inappropriate for animate nouns. As alternatives how about: Tuomas ja Katri lähtivät Imatralle ilman GPS-navigaattoria. Tuomas ja Katri lähtivät Imatralle GPS-navigaattoritta. --- The sentence about staying at home is a good example of the thought process. What I like about the original sentences (after accounting for changes to word order) is that they're structurally analogous with each other by using the verb "to be" as a non-compound, and a stationary locative for "home". The relevant difference jumps out in how the Hungarian postposition governs nominative while the postpositions of the other languages govern something other than nominative. However san-serif's and Serpent's comments made me devise new sentences more idiomatic after having changed the original sentence. “We’re staying at home because of the cold weather.” / “On account of the cold weather, we’re staying at home.” Estonian: Oleme jäämas koju külma ilma tõttu. Finnish: Olemme jäämässä kotiin kylmän sään takia. Northern Saami: Mii báhcit ruoktot galbma dálkki dihte. Meadow Mari: Йÿштö игечылан кöра ме мöҥгыштö кодына. Hungarian: A hideg idő miatt itthon maradunk. Would these revised Estonian and Finnish sentences sound more idiomatic? I've made the requisite changes in the sentences of the other languages but as far as know none of them expresses a somewhat emphasized present continuous action in the same way as the first two languages. About the translation "Maybe we won't beat the Germans in soccer" the trigger for me was the use of potrafimy which despite being biaspectual I tend to associate more with the perfective, for better or worse, because it can complement the decidedly imperfective możemy. 1 person has voted this message useful |
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