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Serpent’s cyclic log: César, Sleipnir,adv

 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log Post Reply
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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5197 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
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Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 217 of 264
20 January 2015 at 5:05am | IP Logged 
Impressive work, thank you so much for this!!!!!!!!
I don't tend to think of these words as similar to English, hehe. (BTW, English also has crapulous. It comes from Latin actually :D)

Puhuisin sun kanssa ihan mielelläni, muistaakseni me puhuttiin vain kerran ja eniten englanniksi, kun melkein koko skandinaavinen TAC-joukkue oli mukana :) suomeksi puhuttiin tosi pieni hetki :D

edit: and TAC-2015 basically starts here.

Edited by Serpent on 20 January 2015 at 9:43am

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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5197 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 218 of 264
20 January 2015 at 5:06am | IP Logged 
from the music challenge thread:

Okay, I'm starting to understand why people don't tend to be the best at their own challenges :D That's why they start them in the first place! Taken me embarrassingly long even to write an introduction and listen to a couple of songs.

My weeks start on Monday, and I'm not very typical in that I'm much less likely to listen to music at the weekend. Weekends are mostly reserved for my other big hobby, football. Of course one or two songs isn't much but my brain tends to be already overloaded. So I'll be doing mostly one album per week or two songs per weekday, at least when the season is on. My lastfm is serpent849 btw.

I came up with this challenge at a small festival in Ylijärvi last summer. I had no visa during the most active festival period and got to see "only" two artists I really love (normally it's much more at Finnish festivals). These were Jonne Aaron and Herra Ylppö ja ihmiset (the second song is one I know well). Both are projects of singers I know from other bands, Negative (in English, there are Spanish subtitles though :D) and Maj Karma (in Finnish). Both bands have been put on hold, both side projects are somewhat softer. (Charon and Harmaja are a similar story btw. Oh and in two of the three cases, the new softer songs are in Finnish while the old rocky ones were in English. Also, I didn't realize I was seeing one of Ihmisten very last concerts, and Karma is coming back now)

Back then, I thought my Finnish tastes were stuck in 2005-2008 because it's more enjoyable to solve the lyrics as puzzles than to listen comfortably (and this probably also applies). So I came up with this challenge. Looking back, I see that I was afraid of being disappointed - and not without reason. I thought the first album I would do was going to be Jonne's... I listened to one song and realized why I had been procrastinating on something supposedly so awesome. I don't think I can even listen to this kind of stuff every day.

So far Vaarallista elämää has been the only one I could listen several times. And this was the 5th song I tried since the second week of January... Jonne remains amazing live though, so I'm going to focus on the live versions maybe.

As for the personal definitions, I'm definitely going to count songs I heard live before, or even albums to which I frantically listened once before a concert/festival. From now on I'll also try to do at least 10 songs during other challenges (maybe less during 2-week Tadoku). Ideally, 10 per language :D I'll also count as little English as possible, though there are some cases where I can't resist, such as with Moonspell. I won't learn the lyrics by heart, but I'll try to develop the cues so to say, ie be able to hear the first line and remember the whole verse, at least in my strong(er) languages. I'll also clear any grammar doubts I might have. Vocabulary will be mostly left for "revision" weeks, umless it's just one or two words. In the revision weeks I'll also learn the song on lyricstraining if available and possibly SRS some lines, read online discussions of the meaning etc.

About genres, I love all kinds of Finnish rock and metal, from Uniklubi to Impaled Nazarene. I'm also doing my best to discover this kind of stuff in other languages of course, and especially Portugal shares a similar kind of melancholy. But as you can see I'll also be listening to what I can't ignore but have mixed feelings about. Eventually Luciano Ligabue might be in this category too.

--
I also need to think of what I can do in terms of the cycle. I'm very sensitive to the phonetics during "that time of the month", at least.

Edited by Serpent on 20 January 2015 at 5:21am

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Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5197 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 219 of 264
20 January 2015 at 8:19am | IP Logged 
Also a few things:
-I've had a reason to practice my Dutch because Modrić spent two weeks recovering from an injury in Belgium. I still use google translate when I need to understand an article asap, but much like with the Scandinavian languages, it just makes sense even when I don't really know the meaning :D

-more on the same topic :P Ancelotti said "creo que ha vuelto <el> lúnes", does it sound like Italian influence? I mean specifically "creo". It's a key player and he doesn't know when he came back to Madrid? :P "Credo che fosse tornato lunedí" (or sia tornato?) somehow sounds much more natural to me, as if it's more of a filler/connecting word. (aaargh I'm trying to remember a similar term to connecting/linking word but I can't! I think it was in Shekhtman's book)

-I noticed the expression "tenemos pensado que" in a tweet about Uruguayan football. Hmmm I guess it explains why it was a surprise to me when in a lang-8 post a couple of years ago, tener was corrected to haber everywhere. I had probably seen it. Anyway, I've been finding very conflicting information about this usage. Any tips, especially from those who also speak Portuguese? I certainly like this feature, also because it reminds me on Italian, but I don't want to sound Portunhol.

Edited by Serpent on 20 January 2015 at 8:59am

1 person has voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5197 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 220 of 264
21 January 2015 at 5:04am | IP Logged 
crossposting my responses from another thread:

1. What is your favorite technique for learning languages (speaking, reading, reading children's books, using textbooks, flashcards, etc.)?
Ideally, I want to have the following kinds of resources available:

  • football matches (live streaming and available afterwards)

  • good rock/metal music, many songs available on LyricsTraining

  • a video series like French in Action (or at least Destinos)

  • an audio course like Deutsch? Warum nicht and in general cool resources comparable to what Deutsche Welle offers

  • flash-based sites for learning the phonetics and some basic vocabulary (for some reason I only know sites for Swedish and Polish/Ukrainian)

  • high quality audiobooks, ideally with multiple voices and sound effects

  • great twitter accounts, including factual, humorous, thought-provoking and personal (which in turn includes both celebrities and random cool people)

  • football fanfiction

  • GLOSS lessons

  • addictive series

  • an autobiography of at least one person I admire

  • fantasy literature, spiritual books (at least translations), as well as non-fiction. ideally available as e-books, free or reasonably priced and with no fussy restrictions

  • a "_______ for doctors" textbook
  • a localization of Criminal Case (theoretically another game would also work, but I'm generally not a gamer)
  • MOOCs (sites like Coursera, Miríada X etc)


Finally, as for people, it's important for me to know:
  • helpful native speakers who know the difference between the descriptive and prescriptive but will honestly admit if something makes them cringe

  • helpful non-native speakers, that is, awesome people like iguanamon, Medulin, 1e4e6, Zimena - having a higher level and willing to dig deeper than I do



I only learned Spanish because I had 90% of the above available, and it kept teasing me by being so easy to understand and offering everything I couldn't have in Italian or European Portuguese, which I like more. The order listed here is pretty vague, of course. In terms of skills it would be listening->reading->speaking->writing. I don't artificially put off writing though, and I start tweeting when I feel like it, at first simply quoting what the commentator said etc. But ideally I want to be able to wait before I start writing actual texts, emails, forum posts etc.

(oh wow this got long! the rest of the answers are shorter :P)

2. What are the biggest wastes of time when trying to learn a new language?
Obsessing over little details. Unless you are honest to yourself about whether you're trying to learn or just having fun (similar to what Ari and robarb discussed above - SRS obscure words if you want, but don't use this as a way of procrastinating). Also planning too much and looking for a perfect method.

3. If you were to coach/train a monoglot, with the goal of him/her becoming fluent (say, being able to have a 10 minute conversation) in a new language in two months time, and there was a million dollars on the line, what would you do and tell your student to do?
I'd have them follow the complete LR method, starting with listening while reading L2 or L1 (the most well-known part), for 8-10 hours a day, then natural listening, shadowing, playing with the vocab. Plus all the principles mentioned in the extended documents in Polish, like getting enough sleep, avoiding mistakes while learning but not caring about them while practising, and various other stuff. The only thing I would add would be SRS, including cloze deletion.
If the person isn't into reading, I would suggest emk's subs2srs method, plus cloze deletion cards with no audio for the most useful phrases/structures.

Due to the timeframe, I'd also get them to practise speaking for most of the second month, or maybe even as early as after 2-3 weeks (depends on the individual circumstances). Ideally they would find some language geek friends, but a tutor will also do, though imo a good helpful friend is worth 3-4 tutors.

4. What are the three most important principles, or things to keep in mind, when learning a language?
Flow, consistency, a multitrack approach. Sometimes that's a tough balance.

5. What are the three biggest mistakes a language learner can make?
Not doing enough listening
Underestimating the time and/or effort needed, ie being impatient or waiting for a miracle
Not being in harmony with your goals, motivation, personality; causing yourself unnecessary pain
(again, a tough balance)

6. Have you taught others to learn languages? Were they successful?
I've given lots of advice here and those who are serious generally do well. And by "not serious" I mean those who ask one question and disappear, especially if they are told they have unrealistic plans/expectations. (As opposed to the wonderful people who always come back eventually, stronger than before)
I also tend to give books adapted according to Ilya Frank's method as gifts.

7. How do you think language learners should approach the grammar in the language they are trying to learn?
Depends on their attitude and personality, and the language too. If you like textbooks, use them. If not, there are various alternatives, most notably learning from input (BOTH reading and listening, multi-part content), using simplified explanations, making your own exercises, SRS/cloze deletion, speaking and being corrected. If you find the right way to approach it, grammar doesn't equal suffering.

8. Who are the most unorthodox language learners you know? What do you think about their methods?
Me? XD also the guys from AJATT and antimoon. I like their ideas but I think the focus on "one language at a time" is unnecessary, especially when you've already learned one language well.
On the other side of the scale there's Benny Lewis, who seems like a masochist to me but whatever works for him...
Here on HTLAL, Bakunin and sctroyenne use really fascinating methods that don't get enough attention.
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suzukaze
Triglot
Senior Member
Italy
bit.ly/1bGm459
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186 posts - 254 votes 
Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish
Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese

 
 Message 221 of 264
21 January 2015 at 9:59am | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Ancelotti said "creo que ha vuelto <el> lúnes", does it sound like Italian influence? I mean specifically "creo". It's a key player and he doesn't know when he came back to Madrid? :P "Credo che fosse tornato lunedí" (or sia tornato?) somehow sounds much more natural to me, as if it's more of a filler/connecting word.

"Credo che sia tornato" is the correct one, unless you say "Credevo che fosse tornato" but that would imply that the player didn't come back, whereas with the first sentence there are equal chances for the player to have already come back or not.

I'm not a native Spanish speaker, but I'd say that in this case we simply use the same verb. Note that the verb tense after the creer/credere part is different, though. In Spanish the indicative tense is used, while in Italian we use the subjunctive.

Edited by suzukaze on 21 January 2015 at 9:59am

2 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5197 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 222 of 264
21 January 2015 at 12:23pm | IP Logged 
Aww, I wrote sia first and then corrected it, oops :/
And well he knew that the player had already returned, just wasn't sure when exactly, I think. But basically at least to me it sounds much more natural in Italian than in Spanish. Maybe I'm over-thinking it :P
Thank you!!!
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suzukaze
Triglot
Senior Member
Italy
bit.ly/1bGm459
Joined 3202 days ago

186 posts - 254 votes 
Speaks: Italian*, English, Spanish
Studies: German, French, Swedish, Japanese

 
 Message 223 of 264
24 January 2015 at 7:39pm | IP Logged 
Serpent wrote:
Aww, I wrote sia first and then corrected it, oops :/
And well he knew that the player had already returned, just wasn't sure when exactly, I think. But basically at least to me it sounds much more natural in Italian than in Spanish. Maybe I'm over-thinking it :P
Thank you!!!

You're welcome! With Spanish and Italian it can be tricky. Sometimes I remember a certain phrase/word in Spanish and wonder whether it exists for real or I'm just making some weird Italian/Spanish mix. It happened on multiple occasions and it's bound to happen again. Luckily I have the advance of knowing one language at native level, but it can be frustrating. Actually this was one of the main reasons that made me drop Spanish in favour of German. No chances of confusing myself there XD
2 persons have voted this message useful



Serpent
Octoglot
Senior Member
Russian Federation
serpent-849.livejour
Joined 5197 days ago

9753 posts - 15778 votes 
4 sounds
Speaks: Russian*, English, FinnishC1, Latin, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese
Studies: Danish, Romanian, Polish, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Croatian, Slovenian, Catalan, Czech, Galician, Dutch, Swedish

 
 Message 224 of 264
22 February 2015 at 8:52pm | IP Logged 
To clarify, I'm very grateful to suzukaze but it would be great if a Spanish native speaker confirmed whether it sounds like Italian influence or not. My impression is that creer is somewhat less common (as a filler/connecting word) than credere and/or shows a lower level of confidence.

And it would be fantastic to get some feedback about the tener hecho structure (i've read all threads at wordreference), and especially how learners with a background in Portuguese handle it/whether they don't use it to avoid sounding Portuñol.

Edited by Serpent on 22 February 2015 at 8:54pm



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