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 Language Learning Forum : Language Learning Log |  | |
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6418 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes  Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 65 of 156 14 January 2013 at 11:11am | IP Logged | ||||||||
Actually, if we didn't know not to do it, we would be likely to close our mouths to make the completely labial b. We Americans are pretty sloppy with our vowels, but less so with our consonants, although we also have some changes there. One of the things I read says that Spanish is a very vowel dependent language and English is very consonant dependent. So we tend to slur our vowels a lot and depend more heavily on the consonants to understand the meaning, while in Spanish, you generally keep the vowels fairly consistent and slur the consonants a bit. Perhaps if we spoke as quickly as Spanish speakers, we would slur our b's too. Of course, not changing the sound probably wouldn't make us misunderstood, but it is always good to get as close to a native accent as possible. Most people have that goal anyway. I suppose a lot of us aren't likely to speak a foreign language so fast that it would matter, but practicing everything possible certainly doesn't hurt. And learning the proper way of doing it might also allow one to speak more quickly. I wish they would speak a little teensy bit slower on the recordings though. It's great to have things at native speed, but maybe it would be better to build up to it. I don't know that it helps to try to say something at native speed if doing so means you make a complete hash out of whatever you're trying to say. I've heard Assimil starts slowly, but I've never tried their courses. And I don't care what people say; Spanish people talk fast. I suppose there are some English speakers that speak so fast, but not where I come from. I knew a girl from Peru once and her English was very good, but she spoke it so incredibly fast that it was hard to follow. I don't remember her slurring any consonants, but her speech was so fast that I couldn't keep up very easily. I guess she talked faster then I could listen and process. Fortunately, most Spanish speakers I've met haven't spoken English well enough to reach those speeds. It's kind of weird starting a new language. It's been so long since I did it that I'd forgotten how much boring work is involved. I really don't remember it being boring, but perhaps it was because I used different courses or perhaps it was because I didn't know what it felt like to know a foreign language well enough to use it. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| mrwarper Diglot Winner TAC 2012 Senior Member Spain forum_posts.asp?TID=Registered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5024 days ago 1493 posts - 2500 votes Speaks: Spanish*, EnglishC2 Studies: German, Russian, Japanese | Message 66 of 156 14 January 2013 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I speak English faster than many English speakers as well, I guess it goes with the person. I forgot to ask, what was that bit about the four levels of stress in English?
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| dampingwire Bilingual Triglot Senior Member United Kingdom Joined 4463 days ago 1185 posts - 1513 votes Speaks: English*, Italian*, French Studies: Japanese | Message 67 of 156 14 January 2013 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
English p is usually aspirated ("spin") whereas in Italian it's not. I didn't think that there was an audible difference, but a while ago I heard an English woman speaking in Italian. The accent was generally good but something sounded a little "off" and eventually I twigged that one of the problems was the "p" sound. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6418 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 68 of 156 15 January 2013 at 11:12am | IP Logged | ||||||||
The example they gave was "elevator operator." At first I didn't believe there could be four levels of stress, but I tried listening to myself very carefully as I said it and they were right. It divides into syllables like this: el-e-vat-or o-pe-rat-or The stresses are: ´ Primary (strongest): el ^ Secondary: o ` Tertiary: vat, rat ̌ Weakest: e, or, e ,or They marked them like this: élĕvàtŏr ôpĕràtŏr
Exactly. In English the p that comes after an s like in spin is unaspirated, and it's the same with t like in still. But mostly they would be aspirated in other positions like at the beginning of a word or after a vowel. We generally don't even recognize the aspirated and unaspirated versions as being different sounds. So first we have to learn to hear that the p in spin is different from the p in pin. Then we have to learn to make the unaspirated p without having a s in front of it. One of the things we are told to do to learn to make the sound, is to imagine we are making the s sound, but not to make the sound out loud. So you think "spin," but let the s be silent and then you will say "pin," but without the aspiration. It actually helps. Looking back, I see that we didn't learn much about pronunciation at all when I studied Spanish in high school. I think they mentioned the ll, but i can't remember anything about stress patterns or unaspirated consonants. We didn't do much speaking, but the teacher would ask someone a few questions now and then, but she never corrected our pronunciation no matter how bad it was. There was one kid who pronounces "ella" as if it were the English girls' name "Ella," and she never even corrected that. The rest of the class whispered to each other about it, but she didn't mention it. So whenever I heard Spanish, it was completely unintelligible. If you learn a language just from books and have no pronunciation practice, it is natural to assume that the letters have the same sound as in your native tongue. So for me, real Spanish didn't even sound vaguely like what I thought it was supposed to sound like. 3 persons have voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6418 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 69 of 156 15 January 2013 at 11:23am | IP Logged | ||||||||
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And now for a tiny Japanese update:
My last lang-8 entry was apparently much better. Five people corrected it and while they corrected a bunch of small things, apparently they didn't think it was so bad. I got a few comments: "日本語、ほぼ完璧です！" (Your Japanese is almost perfect!) A slight exaggeration, I'm sure, to put it mildly. But it felt good to be told that, even if I don't believe it. Another said, "You can write almost right sentences in Japanese. It is not for academic, but if you talk with Japanese people, almost Japanese will understand what you want to say." So at least it wasn't quite the massacre it was the time before. I have one friend who gives very detailed corrections. Apparently my use of the passive-causitive was rather old-fashioned, so I need to study up on that. I like when people tell me why something is wrong or why another wording sounds better. A lot of people only correct things without commenting. I always try to explain things if I'm able to. It takes me quite a while to correct other people's entries, but I think it's nice to help people learn. Lang-8 is fabulous! I feel like I've learned so much already, even though I've only written a few entries. If you haven't tried it, I really recommend that you do. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| kujichagulia Senior Member Japan Joined 4645 days ago 1031 posts - 1571 votes Speaks: English* Studies: Japanese, Portuguese | Message 70 of 156 15 January 2013 at 2:20pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I like Lang-8 in theory, but I find that I can't do it every day. Perhaps once a week at the most.
It just takes me forever to write two or three paragraphs. I usually write it out by hand at first, then type it up on Lang-8 when I have computer time. All of that could take an hour total. I guess it gets easier with practice. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| Brun Ugle Diglot Senior Member Norway brunugle.wordpress.c Joined 6418 days ago 1292 posts - 1766 votes Speaks: English*, NorwegianC1 Studies: Japanese, Esperanto, Spanish, Finnish | Message 71 of 156 15 January 2013 at 4:26pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
That's about how long it takes me too. I average about 100 words per hour I think. And then I go over the corrections pretty thoroughly, so it takes a long time, but it's worth it. And hopefully it will get faster eventually. I don't think I could manage more than one or two a week either yet, but by the end of the year, I plan to be writing quickly and easily, or at least reasonably so. I've actually only written a total of 11 entries in a period of a year, but even that seems to be making a difference. Those I've done recently have helped especially, now that I've gotten the hang of going through corrections and studying up on things I got wrong. I definitely felt that my writing last time came easier than the two entries before that. 1 person has voted this message useful | |||||||||
| g-bod Diglot Senior Member United KingdomRegistered users can see my Skype Name Joined 5780 days ago 1485 posts - 2002 votes Speaks: English*, Japanese Studies: French, German | Message 72 of 156 15 January 2013 at 6:45pm | IP Logged | ||||||||
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I find it hard to dedicate the time for writing too. One thing I have tried to do, as a jump start when I'm really struggling to motivate myself to do anything active, is speed writing. I set a timer for 10 minutes and basically have to write as much as I can about anything in that time. No look ups, because there's no time! The results may or may not end up on Lang8 but the main thing is it gets me writing at times when I really feel like I can't be bothered!
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